Montana Deer

[Ought Six]

I personally don’t think it’s elk moving into these areas is the reason for the mule deer decline. I work periodically in Carter, Fallon, Wibeaux, and Richland counties on pipeline projects and there is only very scattered highly mobile elk populations that cross back and forth. With the fires in Custer and the Long Pines excellent regrowth of bitterbrush, aspen pockets, grasses/forbs, etc is ongoing and in excellent shape this last season and even five years ago before this recent drought. This drought effected mule deer and whitetail on larger ranches that were highly controlled and didn’t allow almost any hunting. So the drought did affect the deer herds. There is no accurate number on the total number of mule deer bucks/does, and whitetail harvested, wounded, or killed in Southeast Montana. But just driving through either Hwy 212, 59, 200, etc there is very minimal roadkill as compared to the early 2000s when I first visited that area. The easiest solution is to limit tags and don’t shoot the does since we can’t control the drought. This population could rebound in 3/5 years of limited hunting and good range conditions. Lastly, I don’t think the harvest was very good in the area we hunted last year, it was pretty quiet.


Whitetail aren’t there either, even along the private ranches along the Little Missouri. They seem to have disappeared

I would disagree with the elk portion. Places that used to not have many elk used to have a lot of deer, there are countless examples from around the state, and now the mule deer are hurting in those areas. Not only do elk seem to be serving as a well of disease that may or may not be getting passed to the mule deer, but trophy bulls bring people from not only around the state, but also around the country to places like the Breaks and the Custer etc.. Those guys throw in 2-3 buddies, everyone has a general deer tag and 2+ doe tags, and all of a sudden the deer are scarce. Look at some of the camps in those areas. You’ll stop and talk to guys that will have a dozen does hanging in the trees around camp and they’ll be complaining about not seeing many deer. Again, not their fault they were sold the “opportunity” and the deer are being managed so poorly, and correlation doesn’t always mean causation, but where there are elk, the mule deer seem to suffer, particularly on public land. There are also other issues in areas where there aren’t many elk as well, but the elk aren’t helping the deer.

 

[DFS]

Unfortunately there is nothing that will be done to improve things. Post season counts showed a slight increase of deer. Doe harvest data does not show a substantial harvest. I personally have watched areas decimated by doe harvest, this means nothing I have no data just my personal observations. For every 1 hunter that remembers when things were better there are 10 or more new recruits that think this is way better than where I came from. I have came to the realization as easy as it would be to improve things montana fwp has no interest in that. We have seen the best mule deer hunting we will ever see. Enjoy what’s left, whitetail hunt or elk hunt. Montana is a dumpster fire where unlimited opportunity will lead to privatization of hunting. Coming up with solutions to a problem mtfwp doesn’t think they have is a waste of time. They are not looking to fix anything because in their mind nothing is broken, even if it obviously is.

 

[MTTW]

If the goal of MTFWP is privatization of hunting, then they really are hitting it out of the park. This was going on long before the current leadership.

 

[marshman]

Region 6 is just as bad, hunted the "High Line "
Last season and hunted 5 days and saw 6 mule deer.
Barren landscape, no elk around at all just some Buffalo.

 

[Raisin Bran]

Apparently, you never hunted Fallon County in the 80's, before the doe massacre started!!

Nothings apparent! You just assumed. 80’s 90’s 2000’s shall I keep going?

 

[DFS]

The best muley I’ve ever shot was in Fallon county late 1990s. The North Dakotans have came in and took out the population to the tune of 7 muley does a year. It will never recover to pre 2012 levels even. It’s a memory. I fully expect them to be back next year if fwp issues doe tags. Nothing can be done about it.

 

[Raisin Bran]

I would disagree with the elk portion. Places that used to not have many elk used to have a lot of deer, there are countless examples from around the state, and now the mule deer are hurting in those areas. Not only do elk seem to be serving as a well of disease that may or may not be getting passed to the mule deer, but trophy bulls bring people from not only around the state, but also around the country to places like the Breaks and the Custer etc.. Those guys throw in 2-3 buddies, everyone has a general deer tag and 2+ doe tags, and all of a sudden the deer are scarce. Look at some of the camps in those areas. You’ll stop and talk to guys that will have a dozen does hanging in the trees around camp and they’ll be complaining about not seeing many deer. Again, not their fault they were sold the “opportunity” and the deer are being managed so poorly, and correlation doesn’t always mean causation, but where there are elk, the mule deer seem to suffer, particularly on public land. There are also other issues in areas where there aren’t many elk as well, but the elk aren’t helping the deer.

Yep! It has been happening since the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation started to really gain ground and push Elk habitat. Not the sole reason but one of many small cause and affects. Now, nobody needs to get all pissy about what I just said about the RMEF because they have done A TON of good for hunting, conservation & land. I have over a dozen great places that held nice numbers of good Mule Deer and Bucks until the Elk started moving in and now those places are all Elk and almost zero Mule Deer. Realistic and true observation!

 

[DFS]

Yep! It has been happening since the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation started to really gain ground and push Elk habitat. Not the sole reason but one of many small cause and affects. Now, nobody needs to get all pissy about what I just said about the RMEF because they have done A TON of good for hunting, conservation & land. I have over a dozen great places that held nice numbers of good Mule Deer and Bucks until the Elk started moving in and now those places are all Elk and almost zero Mule Deer. Realistic and true observation!

There are places where the mule deer decline is as bad or worse and there are no elk. That narrative does play in to what Montana fwp is preaching though. Maybe just maybe it’s the unrestricted harvest on accessible lands. Or it’s probably the elk. Let’s wipe them out too.

 

[TheJason]

Maybe the elk lobbied for a 5 week deer season running through November.

 

[Luis]

When I took my buck to FWP at Miles City for CWD sampling, the region 7 deer biologist said they take 5% of the total deer population in the region and make them doe tags.

 

[antlerradar]

When I took my buck to FWP at Miles City for CWD sampling, the region 7 deer biologist said they take 5% of the total deer population in the region and make them doe tags.

If there was even distribution of harvest this approach would work just fine. The problem is in places like the Custer the doe harvest is much greater than 5% and on may big private ranches the percentage of does killed is close to zero.

 

[Bambistew]

I have over a dozen great places that held nice numbers of good Mule Deer and Bucks until the Elk started moving in and now those places are all Elk and almost zero Mule Deer. Realistic and true observation!

Interesting. I remember places in SW MT that had a lot of both elk and mule deer in the 80 and early 90s. The MD deer precipitously started to vanish in the early 90s and never recovered, about the time the elk population peaked. I remember as a kid in the 80s seeing 4-600+ mule deer on winter ranges that I used to watch near my house nearly every day, now there are 40-60 on those same ranges, a dozen here half a dozen there. The MD deer numbers were pretty stable for decades before along with robust elk numbers (although not the peaks we saw in the 90s) from what I was told by elders. Elk numbers have declined since the peak yet MD have not recovered. I remember shed hunting in 1992 or 93, and finding dozens of dead deer. Usually I'd find 1-3 a year, they just were everywhere.

In the late 80s and early 90s I would count MD off my front porch in the hay fields with a spotting scope. I could easily count over 100 many evenings with nearly 200 being counted some times. There would be maybe another 50 whitetails in the same large ag fields. Then the crash in the early 90s, the herd dropped to 40-60 a night, until finally, there was no mule deer at all a year or two later. Zero. I remember seeing a small group of mule deer after almost 5 years after they all vanished, and was surprised. Whitetail populations increased after the MD disappeared, and increased exponentially until declining and becoming relatively stable.

I have no idea what happened. Family members living and hunting the same area saw the elk population increase from the 40s to present day, with peaks in the mid 90s and leveling off after declining in the early 2000s. Did the elk displace the deer? I think its plausible. Did the climate change to less favorable conditions for deer? Was hunting a factor? Where there more deer in the 80s-early 90s in my part of SW MT than there was normally? Many family members who hunted long before I was alive had great hunting, most didn't even bother with deer (because they were easy and plentiful), as they pursued elk, but would take nice bucks late in the season if time allowed. One friend who is now in his mid 60, was a rabid deer hunter, and has some incredible slides of winter range bucks in SW MT from the 60s to early 80s, along with stores of large herds of deer on winter ranges. These same places have maybe 15-20% of the historic numbers of deer today.

MT F&G knew something happened to the deer and changed the regulations in the mid/late 90s for a few years. After 3 years, it was night and day different, IMO as far as number of bucks and bucks seen. Then went back to the OTC free for all kill em all season structure of managing for minimum viable populations.

IMO, there is little that can be done at this point. I really think MD are so far down the slide, they won't recover, ever. We'll heading to the bottom, and will level out at some low level that is barely sustainable, just like wild sheep.

 

[DFS]

If there was even distribution of harvest this approach would work just fine. The problem is in places like the Custer the doe harvest is much greater than 5% and on may big private ranches the percentage of does killed is close to zero.

Their data is wrong. It’s as simple as that. They collect it and send it to helena for manipulation. They are protective of their counts. I think the true data will show we are in trouble. Good luck getting your hands on it.

 

[MTTW]

Interesting. I remember places in SW MT that had a lot of both elk and mule deer in the 80 and early 90s. The MD deer precipitously started to vanish in the early 90s and never recovered, about the time the elk population peaked. I remember as a kid in the 80s seeing 4-600+ mule deer on winter ranges that I used to watch near my house nearly every day, now there are 40-60 on those same ranges, a dozen here half a dozen there. The MD deer numbers were pretty stable for decades before along with robust elk numbers (although not the peaks we saw in the 90s) from what I was told by elders. Elk numbers have declined since the peak yet MD have not recovered. I remember shed hunting in 1992 or 93, and finding dozens of dead deer. Usually I'd find 1-3 a year, they just were everywhere.

In the late 80s and early 90s I would count MD off my front porch in the hay fields with a spotting scope. I could easily count over 100 many evenings with nearly 200 being counted some times. There would be maybe another 50 whitetails in the same large ag fields. Then the crash in the early 90s, the herd dropped to 40-60 a night, until finally, there was no mule deer at all a year or two later. Zero. I remember seeing a small group of mule deer after almost 5 years after they all vanished, and was surprised. Whitetail populations increased after the MD disappeared, and increased exponentially until declining and becoming relatively stable.

I have no idea what happened. Family members living and hunting the same area saw the elk population increase from the 40s to present day, with peaks in the mid 90s and leveling off after declining in the early 2000s. Did the elk displace the deer? I think its plausible. Did the climate change to less favorable conditions for deer? Was hunting a factor? Where there more deer in the 80s-early 90s in my part of SW MT than there was normally? Many family members who hunted long before I was alive had great hunting, most didn't even bother with deer (because they were easy and plentiful), as they pursued elk, but would take nice bucks late in the season if time allowed. One friend who is now in his mid 60, was a rabid deer hunter, and has some incredible slides of winter range bucks in SW MT from the 60s to early 80s, along with stores of large herds of deer on winter ranges. These same places have maybe 15-20% of the historic numbers of deer today.

MT F&G knew something happened to the deer and changed the regulations in the mid/late 90s for a few years. After 3 years, it was night and day different, IMO as far as number of bucks and bucks seen. Then went back to the OTC free for all kill em all season structure of managing for minimum viable populations.

IMO, there is little that can be done at this point. I really think MD are so far down the slide, they won't recover, ever. We'll heading to the bottom, and will level out at some low level that is barely sustainable, just like wild sheep.

This is very similar to my experience in SW MT. It got so bad in the early 90s for mule deer that I said F-it and moved to Alaska for a few years. It is much worse now. We used to avoid areas with elk because they attracted hunters. Today most of those areas have almost no mule deer and for the most part no elk once rifle season starts.

It seems to me that it can never come back but, that must have been what it looked like in 1900. I am confident that I will never see mule deer hunting noticeably improve in SW MT.
I actually would hate to see FWP try to improve mule deer hunting in the units that I hunt, simply because the rest of the state would swarm on it and make it worse than it ever was.
I really don't think that I have anything to worry about.

That low level that is barely sustainable is exactly what I am seeing in the mountains where I hunt. 5 years ago I thought it was getting pretty bad but today I feel irresponsible hunting mule deer there even though the odds of me killing one are incredibly low.

Somehow I still hold hope for eastern MT but they need to change management now, and they need to do more than stick a bandaid on it, which is their practice in my experience.

 

[antlerradar]

Somehow I still hold hope for eastern MT but they need to change management now, and they need to do more than stick a bandaid on it, which is their practice in my experience.

Sadly the only reason for hope in Eastern MT is that there is lots of private land where the landowners take management into there own hands. There is always hope that you can be in the right place at the right time and get your buck when he happens to jump the fence or wander onto a small isolated pit of public. I don't have much hope for the bigger blocks of public without big changes.

 

[MTTW]

Sadly the only reason for hope in Eastern MT is that there is lots of private land where the landowners take management into there own hands. There is always hope that you can be in the right place at the right time and get your buck when he happens to jump the fence or wander onto a small isolated pit of public. I don't have much hope for the bigger blocks of public without big changes.

I have hope because you still have deer, but I held on to hope for 25 years too long in SW MT so I guess I am just an optimist.

 

[1100RemingtonMan]

Montana should just keep the season close one year. Then see where the populations at.