Montana 2025 Legislative Session

[Shed God]

Well no shit. Let the Bio manage. I know 1 Bio very well. He told me he has no control. He told me he rigged numbers to help the population. I know a few others some go with the flow. Some change agencies they work for

 

[Shed God]

Definitely management is in the eye of the beholder. But mule deer should be thriving on public. Not just where they are protected on private

 

[Shed God]

I mean really u guys still want to talk about cwd. In my opionon it is born on private that does not allow public hunting. That spreads to the public. That only hurts the public

 

[antlerradar]

This is completely logical when you think about it. I suspect that once prevalence has reached some percentage, the prion load in the environment becomes the driver of infection rate, not animal to animal transmission. Once you’re there, killing animals is completely moot.

I have no data, but I feel like we’re way past that stage in many places.



Respectfully, I’m confused by this. You describe here perfectly what happens when people select animals based on antler size. Because hunters are not good at assessing age. This is exactly the outcome that has been repeatedly documented when antler point restrictions are implemented. Yet you go on to advocate for antler point restrictions if I’m not mistaken? I feel like something went over my head?

Most people that are advocating for APR's are pushing four point or better and many bucks will never qualify for this standard. I am suggesting and APR that is much more liberal and would only protect most yearling bucks.

 

[antlerradar]

Everything I’ve seen shows CWD prevalence higher in older mule deer bucks than younger mule deer bucks, wtd bucks, mule deer does, wtd does, elk, fawns, etc. I can’t remember the exact order but older mule deer bucks are at the top of the list. That tells me the best way to curtail CWD prevalence is to kill older mule deer bucks. A lot of folks here criticize biologists and FWP for not following the science: well, here’s one thing they are doing (granted, some purposeful some not) that kinda follows the science.

I am not arguing against killing older bucks. I am arguing that seasons that allow us to be selective shifts the harvest on to the bucks with the best potential.This will most certainly decrease the age of the bucks with the best potential. The problem is that being selective is also shifting harvest away from bucks with poor potential and they will live longer. At best we will reduce the age of the better bucks by a year or maybe two. Just not that much room to decrease the age of the better bucks, but there is plenty of room to add many years to the life of the bucks with poor potential. I am confident that CWD is not concerned with the antler size of the bucks.

 

[antlerradar]

Everything I’ve seen shows CWD prevalence higher in older mule deer bucks than younger mule deer bucks, wtd bucks, mule deer does, wtd does, elk, fawns, etc. I can’t remember the exact order but older mule deer bucks are at the top of the list. That tells me the best way to curtail CWD prevalence is to kill older mule deer bucks. A lot of folks here criticize biologists and FWP for not following the science: well, here’s one thing they are doing (granted, some purposeful some not) that kinda follows the science.

I fear we are making the same kind of mistakes when FWP was forced to deal with over objective elk by crappy legilation. The focus is on the bigger 1/2 to 2/3's of the bucks. Those bucks are like public land elk, They will never be the issue. With our current level of hunting pressure those bucks will struggle to get much age regadless of the season structure. We need to find ways to get hunters to shoot more of the poor antlered bucks. These bucks are the private land elk when it comes to CWD

 

[Eric Albus]

Most people that are advocating for APR's are pushing four point or better and many bucks will never qualify for this standard. I am suggesting and APR that is much more liberal and would only protect most yearling bucks.

I say go with point restrictions and no rut hunt 2-3 yrs… then open it for 1 yr, take a good reading(mandatory reporting) and see what we have, then maybe go back 2 yrs point restrictions and no rut hunt…then back 1yr 5 weeks season

 

[WanderWoman]

I fear we are making the same kind of mistakes when FWP was forced to deal with over objective elk by crappy legilation.

I think a lot of the points in your last two posts would be great to dissect in a different thread, so has not take away from the point of this one, the upcoming leg session. But this point you make speaks in part to exactly why wildlife management shouldn’t be legislated.

 

[Carnage2011]

I say go with point restrictions and no rut hunt 2-3 yrs… then open it for 1 yr, take a good reading(mandatory reporting) and see what we have, then maybe go back 2 yrs point restrictions and no rut hunt…then back 1yr 5 weeks season

I think your idea is decent. However, we had a unit in SW MT that was full limited entry from 20+ years that recently went general and it was completely shot out in the first year. Whatever changes we make need to be consistent going forward and not opened up for a slaughter at any point.

 

[Eric Albus]

Agreed. In this day and age one year of unchecked, unfettered hunting and the area/unit/east side of Montana, can be shot out in a single season.

 

[MTTW]

Even in mountainous country with the right weather conditions 1 year with the season through Nov. will put you right back where you started. The bucks from 400 square miles in a given unit will be concentrated in a few square miles right where 90% of the hunters are at.

 

[rogerthat]

Even in mountainous country with the right weather conditions 1 year with the season through Nov. will put you right back where you started. The bucks from 400 square miles in a given unit will be concentrated in a few square miles right where 90% of the hunters are at.

This exact thing happened with a unit I hunt in Colorado and their later season dates

 

[Deleted member 53219]

CWD is a moot point in the poor management of mule deer. It’s been around forever, it will never go away, and killing all the deer, primarily older bucks, is having no positive benefit. The prions live in the soil and the next generation will get infected regardless.

Stop using CWD as an excuse to decimate mule deer populations and age class.

 

[rogerthat]

CWD is a moot point in the poor management of mule deer. It’s been around forever, it will never go away, and killing all the deer, primarily older bucks, is having no positive benefit. The prions live in the soil and the next generation will get infected regardless.

Stop using CWD as an excuse to decimate mule deer populations and age class.

Fighting for Big Mule Deer with Darby Finley

Podcast Episode · Rokcast · 06/13/2024 · 1h 33m

podcasts.apple.com

Take a listen to this podcast. It was the first time I was able to comprehend the objective of lowering age class. I’m watching the data coming out of Colorado closely as I think that will indicate whether the kill them to save them plan has any merit at all in reducing prevalence.

Another place I’m watching is Wyoming where several herds with very high prevalence rates appear to have decimated age class anyway lending credence to the possibility that Cwd is going to lower age class anyway. I appreciate the research these other states are leading on.

I get your ire, as montana bios seem to jump on the bandwagon for any science that supports current management. That gets frustrating. Jury is still out but at least these other states are trying to figure this out. That’s my takeaway. Sorry for the derail. We should probably jump this convo to a montana mule deer thread.

 

[Elky Welky]

This is relevant from about 5 pages back.

Thomas Baumeister & 8 others: A landowner's right to choose

The American spirit is deeply intertwined with the ideal of private property rights. The freedom to own, manage and conserve one’s land is a fundamental liberty underpinning our democracy.

www.bozemandailychronicle.com

 

[Shed God]

I mean really what are we doing. We should lead. Go all LE. It that way anyway. 454 landowners get there's. It's otc so nonresident coming. Wtf are u fighting for.

Give landowners tags non resident. But with that limited entry. Access to private.

I honestly don't know what half the shit u guys post. It really simple. But all u dickheads make it hard republican or democratic. It a game. Stupid. People $*)Q!#@$ around. Really we standing on the hill we die on. When everything benefits private. Regardless. Private fwp strange ****ers stealing from the public have so much power influence. It weird time.

Like be honest. I call u out. If u not

 

[Deleted member 53219]

I mean really what are we doing. We should lead. Go all LE. It that way anyway. 454 landowners get there's. It's otc so nonresident coming. Wtf are u fighting for.

Give landowners tags non resident. But with that limited entry. Access to private.

I honestly don't know what half the shit u guys post. It really simple. But all u dickheads make it hard republican or democratic. It a game. Stupid. People $*)Q!#@$ around. Really we standing on the hill we die on. When everything benefits private. Regardless. Private fwp strange ****ers stealing from the public have so much power influence. It weird time.

Like be honest. I call u out. If u not

Hotel Metlen have a drink special last night?

 

[Sixmile]

I mean really what are we doing. We should lead. Go all LE. It that way anyway. 454 landowners get there's. It's otc so nonresident coming. Wtf are u fighting for.

Give landowners tags non resident. But with that limited entry. Access to private.

I honestly don't know what half the shit u guys post. It really simple. But all u dickheads make it hard republican or democratic. It a game. Stupid. People $*)Q!#@$ around. Really we standing on the hill we die on. When everything benefits private. Regardless. Private fwp strange ****ers stealing from the public have so much power influence. It weird time.

Like be honest. I call u out. If u not

 

[Montana_Wanderer]

In case anyone has missed it Shed God is all about limited entry.

 

[Shed God]

Limited entry is the only way possible to manage the wildlife. I mean u can't just sell tags and hope for the best.