Meateater Podcast episode #155: Guns - Lead study in ND

[ltdann]

As I said before, the lead exposure in birds is different from human exposure. There's a difference between systemic, chronic exposure to lead in living tissue and acute, one time exposure to metallic lead in a dead deer.

The bullet fragments that we might accidently eat pass through our digestive track fairly quickly. If you swallow a lead fishing sinker, you'll hear it richocet around the toilet the next day. How much lead exposure would you get if you did that twice a year? Not much according to CDC and the ND study.

Now if you eat a duck that's been eating lead all its life (spent shot in craw), your likly to see a rise in your blood lead after awhile.

I'll be hunting Axis in Texas in June and I'll be using Sierra GameKing's...I'm not loosing any sleep over it.

 

[JLS]

If someone has lost countless numbers of deer simply from shooting copper bullets, they should probably quit hunting.

 

[Ben Long]

See this is why I like this forum. Live and learn.

 

[Jerky]

If someone has lost countless numbers of deer simply from shooting copper bullets, they should probably quit hunting.

I can count the number of animals I've lost because of copper bullets. That number is zero. I hunt a lot. Agreed JLS.

 

[Schaaf]

I can count the number of animals I've lost because of copper bullets. That number is zero. I hunt a lot. Agreed JLS.

I’m in the same boat.

 

[ltdann]

If someone has lost countless numbers of deer simply from shooting copper bullets, they should probably quit hunting.

I'm not the only CA hunter to experience that. Perhaps the better way to exchange information is to ask "why is that?" rather than suggesting a fellow hunter quit. The ingrained individualism of hunters is the very trait that's being exploited to kill the sport. Divide and conquer.

But hey, maybe you're one those lucky guys that gets to "choose" to shoot whatever you want. Here in CA, that choice was taken from us. They're trying in ND, AZ and now have their sights on Utah, Oregon and WA. But not Montana, right?

Thanks your input.

 

[JLS]

Shot copper for 20 years, as has my wife and daughter.

 

[mtmuley]

ltdann, broad statement to make about animals being lost from a mono bullet hit. I'm betting if it is true, it is due to piss poor shooting. Or complete bullshit. mtmuley

 

[ltdann]

I'm happy for you. Glad you've had a positive experience. I have not.

After two rifles, and thousands of rounds reloaded and/or store bought, I find lead-free ammo less effective than lead. My personal experience in the coastal sage of CA is that rifle ammo punches thru the animal, leaving a small exit wound resulting in very little in the way of a blood trail. The animal then is almost impossible to track in the terrain and brush.

Since the ground is mostly sand, no telling which of the hundreds of tracks is your deer. After a bit, the blood trail dies out. Then it's circling and hoping to stumble into it buried into a sage bush or manzanita. The coastal blacktail isn't a big deer to begin with, so it's a challenge.

It's the reason, I pretty much gave up hunting with my Tikka on those deer. The lead-free just doesn't give the same performance as say....Nosler Partions. I NEVER had a failure with Partitions, they never took more than a step or two.

I've been hunting with my 11-87 using 12ga Federal Trophy copper slugs. Since Federal switched from Barnes to making their own slugs, its been a massive improvement, both in accuracy and terminal performance. Because of the inherent range limitation of slugs, I need to get pretty close to take a shot, it helps but not always a done deal. Last deer season, I shot a 4x4 in the face @55 yards after an hour long stalk. It didn't kill him and he took off. Fortunately, he ran past me and I was able to get another one into his neck at 40 yards. It STILL took me 30 minutes to find him in the waist high brush.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[ltdann]

ltdann, broad statement to make about animals being lost from a mono bullet hit. I'm betting if it is true, it is due to piss poor shooting. Or complete bullshit. mtmuley

It's common complaint among many, many CA hunters. Some guys report no problems with the stuff, but I'd say more complaints then positve comments.

I tried Hornady's GMX for pig hunting one year. I shot what I estimated was a 200 lb sow at 40 yards, from a sitting position. The pig bolted. I tracked it for two days and never found it. The blood trail petered out after about 200 yards. I found BONE pieces and blood where she was standing.

I shot a buck in the back of the head while it was running, with a 12 ga Barnes slug. It was about a 20 yard shot, when I dug the slug out of the skull, the slug failed to open and there was skull bits in the hollow point.

The Sierra game kings I shot at the range Friday, were more accurate @300 yds then the E-tips. I could get less than 3 inches out of the game kings, 5" for the e-tips. I should mention I really like the E-tip, but has limitations.

I'm just saying, that for the amount of money the lead-free cost, it should be perform better. Especially when I can't see a good reason that I HAVE TO use it.

 

[homers]

Try Hammer bullets. I too have seen lead free not have the impact on the animal that it should - even at close range and well placed shots. Animals can run some distance before dropping. I'm going to switch to Hammers, they seem softer, not 100% weight retention, so I'm hopeful for better terminal performance.

 

[JLS]

...

 

[TLowell02]

It's common complaint among many, many CA hunters. Some guys report no problems with the stuff, but I'd say more complaints then positve comments.

I tried Hornady's GMX for pig hunting one year. I shot what I estimated was a 200 lb sow at 40 yards, from a sitting position. The pig bolted. I tracked it for two days and never found it. The blood trail petered out after about 200 yards. I found BONE pieces and blood where she was standing.

I shot a buck in the back of the head while it was running, with a 12 ga Barnes slug. It was about a 20 yard shot, when I dug the slug out of the skull, the slug failed to open and there was skull bits in the hollow point.

The Sierra game kings I shot at the range Friday, were more accurate @300 yds then the E-tips. I could get less than 3 inches out of the game kings, 5" for the e-tips. I should mention I really like the E-tip, but has limitations.

I'm just saying, that for the amount of money the lead-free cost, it should be perform better. Especially when I can't see a good reason that I HAVE TO use it.

Just going out on a limb here but.... perhaps you should reevaluate your shot selection? I agree with you that hunters should be allowed to use the bullet of their choice but I'm not sure I buy your evidence. My sister shot a cow elk this fall with a copper bullet and she traveled less than 100 yards with plenty of organ damage.

 

[ltdann]

Just going out on a limb here but.... perhaps you should reevaluate your shot selection? I agree with you that hunters should be allowed to use the bullet of their choice but I'm not sure I buy your evidence. My sister shot a cow elk this fall with a copper bullet and she traveled less than 100 yards with plenty of organ damage.

Given the terrain and vegetation I work with, I've done just that . I pass on alot of animals because I have no confidence in the non-lead preformance. My experience is that it's just not as good as an Accubond or Partion. Hell, till Federal came out with their Trophy Copper Slugs, I was about to give up hunting. It still hurts to pull the trigger at what they cost, about $3 a shell. I don't hear muzzle blast, I hear Cha-ching.

July 1st, the entire state will be lead-free, for the taking of ANY game. Given that also on 1July, there's a required background check for ammo, it'll be interesting to hear what happens on the Dove opener in Sept.

Alot of guys only hunt the dove opener and buy their stuff at the local wallyworld when they get to their spot. I predict alot of disappointed hunters opening morning. Alot of them will fail the background check and who wants to pay $8-12 for a box of dove loads after being treated like a criminal for trying to buy it.

A fair number will probably quit hunting after that.

But that's really the goal here, isn't it?

 

[Jerky]

Ltdann, the problem in your case is the head and neck shots with very little margin for error. That's a whole other can of worms, but it ain't the coppers fault.

 

[Doublecluck]

Just going out on a limb here but.... perhaps you should reevaluate your shot selection? I agree with you that hunters should be allowed to use the bullet of their choice but I'm not sure I buy your evidence. My sister shot a cow elk this fall with a copper bullet and she traveled less than 100 yards with plenty of organ damage.

You ever look for a deer or hog 100 yards in to a 8 ft tall manzanita patch that hasn’t burned in 100 years? You better have a chainsaw, machete, can of tick repellent and a blood hound. When you are used to anchoring whatever you shoot at right where it stands, then running 100-200 yards thru a jungle becomes the norm people become opinionated. You are right about shot placement, we learned pretty quickly to shoot for the shoulder bone or the head on hogs. Saw plenty of deer get double lunged from 2008-2010 with copper that went 1-200 yards.

Lots of misinformation out there is hunter perception based on myths they heard from a buddy. I have some first hand experience with copper. If copper works for you where you hunt great use it. I have been shooting primarily Berger vlds my whole life and I have never had an animal take more than two steps after being hit. That’s the performance I prefer.

There is some good evedince out there regarding lead bullets and mortality in other raptors. I have thought about switching to all copper because I do care about our enviroment but I want to see the study out of California that shows that lead levels have decreased in these raptors now that they have entirely banned lead. Until then a lot of us see it for what it appeared, a anti hunting agenda pushed by the same people/groups we were battling on every other anti hunting topic.

 

[ltdann]

LOL...Quack you pretty much nailed it! I fell through a manzanita patch that came to my shoulders before I touched ground. If my buddy hadn't seen me go in, I'd still be there. awww good times.

Anyway, all these studies, performance issues etc with non-lead is old. I remember hearing the same things, having the same discussions way back in 2005 before the first lead ban went into effect.

The facts are, there's not many choices for lead free rifle ammo. Barnes and Nosler, Hornady, some of the custom shops like Hammer. If your rifle doesn't like them, you're stuck or if you can, reload.

NSSF says that CA already eats most of the National Production of lead-free as it is, and we won't be fully implemented until July. I haven't seen a box of E-tips on the shelf in years, so I reload.

I used to order online from Texas, but that's illegal now. If its not on the "approved" list, you can't use it. I can't drive to Nevada or AZ and load up and bring back, that's a misdemeanor.

We've got 4 months to go before the background check thing goes into effect and as of Friday, no gun shop has been informed on how to do it. I can have the gunshop order me some lead free, but there's a surcharge, a background check charge, hazmat fee and the state wants to add another tax on top of all that.

It's easier to go down the local pot dispensary and get weed then it is to hunt here.

And it's coming to a state near you. Stay informed, watch the news, stick together and write your lawmakers. Anytime you see something from HSUS, Peregrine Falcon fund or the Center for Biological Diversity, pay attention, because it's not good hunters.

LTDANN out.

 

[Pelican]

Ltdann,
I think a high shoulder shot would be better in you situation vs the head shot. Aim ~ 2/3 of the way up the body in line with the front leg on a broadside deer. Your copper bullets will go through both shoulders and both lungs. The deer won’t go anywhere and will die quickly. Much bigger target than a head shot. You won’t loose much meat with the all copper bullets. And don’t let the bastards win by quitting.

 

[ltdann]

I see where the confusion is. It's not that I like neck and head shots...it's all that's visible. It's usual the only shot I'm presented with. I'm talking tall, thick brush. The kind that makes your shins look like hamburger and the rest of your body looks like you lost a knife fight. If you don't drop it the animal where it stands, you're screwed.

Why, you ask? Because I hunt where the deer ARE, not where I want them to be.

That's why I switched to the 300 gr 12 ga slugs. Better chance of DRT shots, and if I can see the body thru the brush, the slug will bust thru the sage.

I wish it allow me to post a picture of the brush, it's gnarly.

 

[pilsner]

Grew up hunting in slug only land of the midwest. I have lost track of the number of deer killed with a 12 or 20 ga slug. The coppers from Federal and Remington in sabot form have been fantastic compared to the old foster style slugs (and even older "rifled" sabots for that matter). Longest shot was 194 yards as verified with a rangefinder afterward (using my truck hood as a rest on a doe cull on a farm) in a Mossberg 500 12 ga with rifled barrel and a no-name 4x scope. I've yet to lose a critter to bullet failure that didnt involve crappy shot placement. Apparently my mileage does vary.
If fairness I have almost zero experience with monolithic bullets in centerfire rifles so my mileage may in fact change a lot if the mandate to use them expands...
Brian