Meateater Close Calls - Free Diving/Spearing Story

[COEngineer]

After hearing the story of the guy that rescued his friend from drowning while they were free diving and spearing, I really thought there should be a Public Service Announcement (PSA). The guy described "blowing across the cheeks" of the guy that had been drowning, but still had a pulse. I am no expert (I took a 2-day Wilderness First Aid, or WFA class), but I had never heard of that as a method for helping someone who is not breathing on their own. So, I just double-checked my handy WFA book and the treatment section for drowning says:

• High flow oxygen if available
• Position of comfort
• Manage airway
• Rescue breathe
• Evacuate Immediately

I think the guy said he has rescued 8 or 9 people in similar situations! I would think that anyone around that many near-death situations would get some proper training or at least tell everyone else (must be millions that will hear that story) what he did wrong and what he should have done.

 

[Sagebrush1]

It is an accepted method for reviving someone who has blacked out during a dive. Who is the person you were speaking of?

I say “blacked out”, not “drowned”, and will explain below.

Once blood saturation reaches the level of “blackout”, the part of our physiology that is responsible for the Mammalian dive response (interesting stuff. Worth reading up on) sort of “assumes” we are still under water - and stops inhalations, despite our brain running out of sufficient oxygen.

Given that a major induction of the dive response is cold water on the face, blowing on the cheeks can show the body that we’re no longer in the water. Some people also pay the cheeks, and/or speak the person’s name.

This is not a drowning situation- drowning includes water intrusion into the lungs. This would turn to drowning if the blackout persisted to the “terminal gasp” when the body says “screw it, we’ve got nothing left to lose, let’s take another breath” and inhales a bunch of water.

“Shallow Water Blackout” is a phenomenon unique to breath hold diving. It is a rapid reduction in partial pressures of oxygen in the blood resulting from a rapid rise in lung volume following the compression of a dive. There’s more to it, but if you want to get into the weeds about it, there is a ton of info available.

If your dive gets you to the point of a blackout, you have made a MAJOR mistake.

And don’t get me started on Meateater’s recent foray into free diving. Those guys are rank freaking amateurs, without a single word on physiology or safety, showing people “how to” engage in the single most dangerous food acquisition method there is.

It is dangerous enough in good company, but watching it in TV and going for it is stupid beyond words.

They just needed a new food acquisition method to absolutely milk dry, without any thought to the effects. It’s shameful. Meateater jumped the shark 5 years ago.

 

[Irrelevant]

It is an accepted method for reviving someone who has blacked out during a dive. Who is the person you were speaking of?

I say “blacked out”, not “drowned”, and will explain below.

Once blood saturation reaches the level of “blackout”, the part of our physiology that is responsible for the Mammalian dive response (interesting stuff. Worth reading up on) sort of “assumes” we are still under water - and stops inhalations, despite our brain running out of sufficient oxygen.

Given that a major induction of the dive response is cold water on the face, blowing on the cheeks can show the body that we’re no longer in the water. Some people also pay the cheeks, and/or speak the person’s name.

This is not a drowning situation- drowning includes water intrusion into the lungs. This would turn to drowning if the blackout persisted to the “terminal gasp” when the body says “screw it, we’ve got nothing left to lose, let’s take another breath” and inhales a bunch of water.

“Shallow Water Blackout” is a phenomenon unique to breath hold diving. It is a rapid reduction in partial pressures of oxygen in the blood resulting from a rapid rise in lung volume following the compression of a dive. There’s more to it, but if you want to get into the weeds about it, there is a ton of info available.

If your dive gets you to the point of a blackout, you have made a MAJOR mistake.

And don’t get me started on Meateater’s recent foray into free diving. Those guys are rank freaking amateurs, without a single word on physiology or safety, showing people “how to” engage in the single most dangerous food acquisition method there is.

It is dangerous enough in good company, but watching it in TV and going for it is stupid beyond words.

They just needed a new food acquisition method to absolutely milk dry, without any thought to the effects. It’s shameful. Meateater jumped the shark 5 years ago.

I would love some more elaboration on this because
"It is dangerous enough in good company, but watching it in TV and going for it is stupid beyond words." This was generally me. I mean I've been messing around with snorkels my entire life, but only thought about spearfishing on seeing it on ME. You mention "ton of information available" Where? Everything that I easily found was pretty high level info, nothing in the weeds.

I have almost no freshwater opportunities here in WA, and the sound is scary... there's sharks. I've only dabbled in the Sound once and it was beautiful but cold as a MF.

 

[COEngineer]

It is an accepted method for reviving someone who has blacked out during a dive. Who is the person you were speaking of?

I say “blacked out”, not “drowned”, and will explain below.

Once blood saturation reaches the level of “blackout”, the part of our physiology that is responsible for the Mammalian dive response (interesting stuff. Worth reading up on) sort of “assumes” we are still under water - and stops inhalations, despite our brain running out of sufficient oxygen.

Given that a major induction of the dive response is cold water on the face, blowing on the cheeks can show the body that we’re no longer in the water. Some people also pay the cheeks, and/or speak the person’s name.

This is not a drowning situation- drowning includes water intrusion into the lungs. This would turn to drowning if the blackout persisted to the “terminal gasp” when the body says “screw it, we’ve got nothing left to lose, let’s take another breath” and inhales a bunch of water.

“Shallow Water Blackout” is a phenomenon unique to breath hold diving. It is a rapid reduction in partial pressures of oxygen in the blood resulting from a rapid rise in lung volume following the compression of a dive. There’s more to it, but if you want to get into the weeds about it, there is a ton of info available.

If your dive gets you to the point of a blackout, you have made a MAJOR mistake.

And don’t get me started on Meateater’s recent foray into free diving. Those guys are rank freaking amateurs, without a single word on physiology or safety, showing people “how to” engage in the single most dangerous food acquisition method there is.

It is dangerous enough in good company, but watching it in TV and going for it is stupid beyond words.

They just needed a new food acquisition method to absolutely milk dry, without any thought to the effects. It’s shameful. Meateater jumped the shark 5 years ago.

Thanks for the feedback and insight. You can hear the story at the end of the this podcast - story starts at 2:44:14.

He describes orange foamy fluid coming out of the victim's mouth. Whether this is from drowning or blacking out or whatever, is there any downside to blowing air into the victim's lungs? Blowing on his cheeks seems like a half-assed method to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

 

[YukonGold]

Thanks for the feedback and insight. You can hear the story at the end of the this podcast - story starts at 2:44:14.

He describes orange foamy fluid coming out of the victim's mouth. Whether this is from drowning or blacking out or whatever, is there any downside to blowing air into the victim's lungs? Blowing on his cheeks seems like a half-assed method to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

Not familiar with the story but think the orange foamy fluid would be evidence of trachea or lung squeeze. Basically pressure causes capillaries in the trachea and/or lungs to burst. Looking forward to Jim's answer, definitely knows his shit.

 

[Sagebrush1]

I would love some more elaboration on this because
"It is dangerous enough in good company, but watching it in TV and going for it is stupid beyond words." This was generally me. I mean I've been messing around with snorkels my entire life, but only thought about spearfishing on seeing it on ME. You mention "ton of information available" Where? Everything that I easily found was pretty high level info, nothing in the weeds.

I have almost no freshwater opportunities here in WA, and the sound is scary... there's sharks. I've only dabbled in the Sound once and it was beautiful but cold as a MF.

I’ll elaborate:

Kicking around with a snorkel is fine. The dreaded questions: “how deep can you dive” and “how long can you hold your breath” have gotten more people killed than you’d imagine.

Our bodies have a very special response to being in the water that allows us (all mammals) to hold our breath longer that we “should” be able to. This is the mammalian dive response. Googling that will get you lots of readily understood info.

Now, the physics of how gasses behave in our body under pressure gets fairly complicated. Suffice it to say that at depth (greater the depth, greater this effect) oxygen is moved into our blood from our lungs as our lung volume decreases (thus pressure increases).

So we’re at 99’. That is 4 atmospheres of pressure. Our lungs are 1/4 size, but 4x the pressure. So now all this oxygen is pushed into the blood via the blood/lung interface based on the current pressures - to an equilibrium.

We tool along using up that oxygen.

We feel like we need to breath. We hold a little more cuz we’re humans, and we want to know how long we can go. Now we really gotta breathe!

So up we go. Kicking up against our negative buoyancy with the biggest, most oxygen demanding muscles in our body. We feel good though cuz we’re using all this oxygen that’s now in our blood.

But a scary thing happens: our lung volume decreases as we rise. And with increasing volume comes decreasing pressure. So all that oxygen in your blood now starts to leave so it can maintain solution equilibrium with the ever increasing lung volume.

The long and short of it is that at the time you need it most, on the ascent, when oxygen is already low, oxygen is being taken from your blood. Once the partial pressure in your blood reaches a limit -switch! - off goes your brain. You pass out.

If you were on the street, you’d fall over, your body would breath, and you’d be fine. But because of that dive response we have, our body says “hold on, I’m in the water, I have to keep my mouth shut”, and you die.

Because of the physics of all this, blackout typically happens near the surface, you go from “I’m feeling ok, I’ll make it to - Boom! Blacked out. It’s described as a light switch most of the time. Scary.

The other scary thing is that most blackout situations arise from inexperience at shallow depths. Those trained and educated are much safer.
30’ is just as dangerous as 100’ if you’re untrained.

My best advice is to take a class. There are a few operators: PFI and Immersion Freediving come to mind. Stay far away from any of PADI classes!!

A basic understanding of what’s going on will help you make wise choices. As far as sharks, that’s just a mental hurdle you have to overcome. Especially where you are. I don’t have any advice for that.

I grew up spearing SoCal, Baja, and the Channel Islands. It’s definitely sharky. Some days you feel more vulnerable, some not. I feel like white sharks are the Grizzlies of spearfishing - they’re there, you’ll probably be fine, but shit can go sideways real fast if you run into one. Ha!

 

[Irrelevant]

I’ll elaborate:

Kicking around with a snorkel is fine. The dreaded questions: “how deep can you dive” and “how long can you hold your breath” have gotten more people killed than you’d imagine.

Our bodies have a very special response to being in the water that allows us (all mammals) to hold our breath longer that we “should” be able to. This is the mammalian dive response. Googling that will get you lots of readily understood info.

Now, the physics of how gasses behave in our body under pressure gets fairly complicated. Suffice it to say that at depth (greater the depth, greater this effect) oxygen is moved into our blood from our lungs as our lung volume decreases (thus pressure increases).

So we’re at 99’. That is 4 atmospheres of pressure. Our lungs are 1/4 size, but 4x the pressure. So now all this oxygen is pushed into the blood via the blood/lung interface based on the current pressures - to an equilibrium.

We tool along using up that oxygen.

We feel like we need to breath. We hold a little more cuz we’re humans, and we want to know how long we can go. Now we really gotta breathe!

So up we go. Kicking up against our negative buoyancy with the biggest, most oxygen demanding muscles in our body. We feel good though cuz we’re using all this oxygen that’s now in our blood.

But a scary thing happens: our lung volume decreases as we rise. And with increasing volume comes decreasing pressure. So all that oxygen in your blood now starts to leave so it can maintain solution equilibrium with the ever increasing lung volume.

The long and short of it is that at the time you need it most, on the ascent, when oxygen is already low, oxygen is being taken from your blood. Once the partial pressure in your blood reaches a limit -switch! - off goes your brain. You pass out.

If you were on the street, you’d fall over, your body would breath, and you’d be fine. But because of that dive response we have, our body says “hold on, I’m in the water, I have to keep my mouth shut”, and you die.

Because of the physics of all this, blackout typically happens near the surface, you go from “I’m feeling ok, I’ll make it to - Boom! Blacked out. It’s described as a light switch most of the time. Scary.

The other scary thing is that most blackout situations arise from inexperience at shallow depths. Those trained and educated are much safer.
30’ is just as dangerous as 100’ if you’re untrained.

My best advice is to take a class. There are a few operators: PFI and Immersion Freediving come to mind. Stay far away from any of PADI classes!!

A basic understanding of what’s going on will help you make wise choices. As far as sharks, that’s just a mental hurdle you have to overcome. Especially where you are. I don’t have any advice for that.

I grew up spearing SoCal, Baja, and the Channel Islands. It’s definitely sharky. Some days you feel more vulnerable, some not. I feel like white sharks are the Grizzlies of spearfishing - they’re there, you’ll probably be fine, but shit can go sideways real fast if you run into one. Ha!

I had no idea... Thanks Jim

I'll definitely try to expand my knowledge. I'd like to keep getting into spearing, even if it's just for kicks and giggles on carp, but I don't know anyone that does it here locally.

 

[Sagebrush1]

Yah I’d say lung squeeze could be the culprit for the foam.

If a blackout has persisted long enough that getting the person to breath doesn’t work (the instinctive centers of the brain that control respiration are out too) then yah. Emergency breathing and/or CPR would come in to play.

The blowing on the cheek thing is applied when you are immediately respond to a blackout. Say your watching them ascend and see it happen so you can be right there to assist.

The classic scenario of a survivable SWB is: you grab them in a safety hold seconds after seeing them pass out, get the to the surface on their back remove mask and snorkel, and blow, pat, speak to get them breathing. They typically wake up and say “where am I? Why are you holding me? Etc. they never know.


If you find a guy laying on the bottom or whatever, that is a much more serious situation.

 

[Sagebrush1]

I had no idea... Thanks Jim

I'll definitely try to expand my knowledge. I'd like to keep getting into spearing, even if it's just for kicks and giggles on carp, but I don't know anyone that does it here locally.

Yah man it’s a wonderful thing to do. I don’t want to put you off. Just go into it with both eyes open and all that.

 

[kansasdad]

@Jim Anderson really great info delivered here, sciency and yet understandable. Nice work sir.

 

[Brauee20]

I had no idea... Thanks Jim

I'll definitely try to expand my knowledge. I'd like to keep getting into spearing, even if it's just for kicks and giggles on carp, but I don't know anyone that does it here locally.

Do you have a dive license?

I first started spearing on tanks (oh the shame) in Florida during college. I don't know that it is any safer but it feels safer. Mostly lionfish, but I'd occasionally shoot something that wasn't a pain to clean.

I then took some free diving classes, saw 2 people blackout on different days and decided maybe it wasn't for me.

Went back to tanks, got dragged by a 9-10ft bull shark with my stringer in it's mouth. Spent the next couple dives constantly checking over my shoulder and hung it up.

Moved back to Michigan and went back to plugging roughfish in Lake Michigan.

 

[Sagebrush1]

@Jim Anderson really great info delivered here, sciency and yet understandable. Nice work sir.

Thank you! I appreciate it

 

[Sagebrush1]

Do you have a dive license?

I first started spearing on tanks (oh the shame) in Florida during college. I don't know that it is any safer but it feels safer. Mostly lionfish, but I'd occasionally shoot something that wasn't a pain to clean.

I then took some free diving classes, saw 2 people blackout on different days and decided maybe it wasn't for me.

Went back to tanks, got dragged by a 9-10ft bull shark with my stringer in it's mouth. Spent the next couple dives constantly checking over my shoulder and hung it up.

Moved back to Michigan and went back to plugging roughfish in Lake Michigan.

I hear yah. I got rolled on by a big White Shark in 6-8 viz. He then disappeared into the murk and I had to swim 150 yards back to boat.

That one took me a while to get over. I’d just had my son, and I felt like a selfish prick.

 

[Irrelevant]

Physiology, Diving Reflex - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Wow... it's like a different language.