Make MT Sheep/Goat Once in a Lifetime?

[RobG]

I would hate to see something like this get implemented based on the erroneous assumption that it will improve the odds of drawing a tag.

 

[TBass]

I would hate to see something like this get implemented based on the erroneous assumption that it will improve the odds of drawing a tag.

More likely it's about envy.

 

[Bambistew]

You keep talking like that and people are gonna move up there and they are all gonna go on a draw! Hahaha
Just had a guy relocate into our office from Las Anchorage I just looked at him and said wth.....

It won't be going to a draw in my lifetime... unless the sheep population tanks.

Also the AK human population continues to decline, and will do so for the foreseeable future. Also there are half as many sheep hunters today as 30 years ago.

Very few hunters kill more than two rams in Alaska. It's self regulating already.

I always love the "Las Anchorage" quip... still better than any city in the lessor 48 for sheep, goat, moose, grizz, and cariou hunting. YMMV.

 

[Gerald Martin]

More likely it's about envy.

I move we pass legislation banning any gloating about sheep hunting by Bambistew.That will not significantly increase my odds of hunting Dall sheep in my lifetime but I will feel better.

 

[406LIFE]

I'd like to get back to the original questions...and the followups.

My idea was purely to find a more equitable way to distribute the resource, not increase odds.

I'm not overly concerned with the details, but I would like to make them as fair as possible, while preserving the OIL for MSG.

Frankly, aside from those who have already drawn, I am not seeing any real downside to making a move like this. Outside of HT, I have found wide support for this, nearly unanimous. Perhaps 95% support it, those that dissent are overwhelmingly those who have already drawn a tag. Again, at the risk of being abrasive, I find it to be incredibly selfish to have already harvested a sheep but still be putting in for it. Yes, it's legal, but we come to the old ethical vs legal conversation. That is different for each person. So, grandfather those guys in; regulate for the coming generations.

I have a couple of legislators I am working with to draft a bill; I have reached out to some conservation groups to attempt to build a consensus. I really believe that the majority of sportsman would be in favor of this.

 

[mtmuley]

Where have you found the " wide support"? mtmuley

 

[tjones]

Where have you found the " wide support"? mtmuley

I could be wrong but my guess is the huge majority of hunters who have never drawn.

 

[MTGomer]

Everybody should still read a few more times what Southern Elk wrote.
That’s what’s best for hunters, hunter’s opportunity and most importantly for the sheep.
406life, is that part of the discussion with the legislators?

I’m also curious what your idea has in store for people that have:
Killed a ram in an unlimited unit or during the tendoy hunt
or that have killed/drawn for a;
Bighorn ewe
Goat Nanny
cow Moose

 

[406LIFE]

Everybody should still read a few more times what Southern Elk wrote.
That’s what’s best for hunters, hunter’s opportunity and most importantly for the sheep.
406life, is that part of the discussion with the legislators?

I’m also curious what your idea has in store for people that have:
Killed a ram in an unlimited unit or during the tendoy hunt
or that have killed/drawn for a;
Bighorn ewe
Goat Nanny
cow Moose

Regarding females: those would not be in the discussion; they are primarily a population control tool.
Regarding Tendoys: Legislation was enacted last year that made so the rams didn't count against your draw.
Regarding discussion: there is still much that is on the table. The big picture is make a limited resource more equitably distributed. The how is why I am soliciting from the forum.

 

[406LIFE]

The best way to improve the odds is to put more sheep and goats on the mountain. In order to get significantly higher wild sheep populations, something will have to be done to remove domestic sheep from their range.

This discussion isn't about improving odds; that would be a byproduct of the OIL, regardless of how small that would actually be.

(without hijacking this thread, Randy's latest podcast is timely about the dicussion of more sheep on the mountain. a new thread on it and your points would be welcomed.)

 

[tjones]

I hear what everyone is saying about more sheep on the ground but getting it done is a whole different story. About 5 years ago our then Bitterroot bio wanted to add sheep to a drainage in the southern Bitterroot. We worked hard with him to get it but but in the end FWP wanted nothing to do with it because the drainage was adjacent to HD270 which has had a die off. They made it clear they had no interest in adding sheep anywhere near a unit that has had a die off. Off the top of my head I can’t think of anywhere other then the Breaks that would fit the bill.

Back in the 90’s I was part of a sheep capture over by Anaconda that added sheep to HD250. I am certain with today’s FWP that transplant would never happen.

BTW tackling and hog tying sheep is great fun. I have some cool pics I will try and find.

 

[MTGomer]

Regarding females: those would not be in the discussion; they are primarily a population control tool.
Regarding Tendoys: Legislation was enacted last year that made so the rams didn't count against your draw.
Regarding discussion: there is still much that is on the table. The big picture is make a limited resource more equitably distributed. The how is why I am soliciting from the forum.

The best thing that can be done to make it more equitable is to do away with bonus points.
Also, guys from Idaho should be pushing for Idaho to also open a few unlimited units in the Frank Church. There’s more opportunity which = equitable distribution of resources.


I notice in your reply you didn’t mention the unlimiteds. Please leave them out of it.
It’s unnecessary- look at the season lengths. It’s also where people go who live for hunting sheep and don’t have 40k a year to go to Alberta. There is no reason to take that away from them.
It would possibly end the opportunity altogether as participation would plummet (I can elaborate if you wish)
It would create a lot more resistance to your idea.


Also remember, bills can be amended. I was involved in discussion two years ago about a kind of similar topic that was ultimately dropped because we were worried that once the idea got brought to light it may be changed or even pushed in the other direction.

Best of luck. Let us know how it goes

 

[Gerald Martin]

The best thing that can be done to make it more equitable is to do away with bonus points. Quote

This is correct.

Now if you want to talk about incredibly selfish, The bonus point system breeds selfishness by practically eliminating the chance of drawing a tag for the generations to come.

I agree with both of these assessments.

I think this whole angle and discussion about making tags OIL and limiting numbers of applicants thru various means in self-serving in nature. In my opinion the majority of people 406LIFE is pointing to as supporting this legislation are doing so, in self-centered hopes it will improve their chances for drawing a hard to get tag. The ones who voluntarily refrain from applying again because they feel like they have had their turn after drawing one tag don't need legislation to motivate their restraint, nor do they begrudge anyone else who happens to draw a certain tag.

To be quite clear, I have never drawn a limited sheep tag. I did hunt the unlimiteds once and hope to many more times in my lifetime. Some might say I'm self-centered in my opposition because I have drawn a moose and a goat tag and perhaps I am, because they were amazing hunts that I hope to experience again before I can't hunt any more.

But, a point I would like to make is that what is "fair" or as one person said, "legal but not ethical" is completely subjective in nature and relative to who is making the assessment of what parameters outline those values. Trying to make a "fair" designation from a selfish perspective doesn't quite fulfill the expectations of what the words "fair" and "equitable" imply.

 

[MTGomer]

Never mind part of my post above. I re read your original post and see where you address the Unlimiteds. It looks like you’re just addressing draw areas.

I’m driving by the crazies and the north absarokas right now. Look like prime places to more equitably distribute a resource. Just need to rid them of meadow maggots. Funding for relocation is the easy part.

 

[antlerradar]

Just wondering. In the last twenty five years how many hunters are there that have actually drawn two or more limited Montana sheep tags? If I was a legislator this would be one of the first questions I would ask. It could be you are looking for a solution for something that is not a problem.

 

[BuzzH]

From someone that has drawn moose and goat in Montana, I am all in favor of making MSG once in a lifetime and that includes retroactively. Perhaps 25 years ago, when there wasn't point schemes and the like, that are stacking the odds heavily against first time applicants, youth hunters, and those that now want to pursue MSG...may have been a different story. Even then, the hand writing was on the wall that MSG were going to get tougher and tougher to draw.

Not today...things have changed. Not only are there more people applying, but the moose, sheep, and goat tag numbers have declined. I remember when the West side of the Bitterroot there were 75 tags issued...then 50. I about chit when I looked up the tag numbers this year...ONE, as in a single permit.

Less sheep tags in 210, 216, 213, 283, etc. etc. etc.

Less moose permits in just about every unit in the State.

The way things are today, there is nobody, no matter the selfish reasons presented...will ever convince me that anything other than once in a lifetime is the way to go.

I fully admit that I apply for moose and goat in Montana...because I can and the current system allows me to. But, really, I shouldn't even have the option.

The only "selfish" part of this discussion is anyone trying to justify having more than one opportunity per lifetime for MSG.

For the record, I know several people that have drawn 2 sheep tags, and 2 that have drawn 3. I know a lot of people that have drawn multiple goat and moose permits. I have a friend that's killed 7 goats in Montana.

 

[brendog84cj8]

If we are talking about "fair and equitable", start by getting a bill passed that forces FWP to be fully transparent about the application processing, data preparation, system actually being used to conduct the drawing, etc... I would love to see proof from the past and to know in the future that FWP has been and will continue to be fair and equitable though out the entire process. You want to see FWP get on the defense real darn quick, call Helena and ask to have a meeting with the licensing department.

 

[tjones]

If we are talking about "fair and equitable", start by getting a bill passed that forces FWP to be fully transparent about the application processing, data preparation, system actually being used to conduct the drawing, etc... I would love to see proof from the past and to know in the future that FWP has been and will continue to be fair and equitable though out the entire process. You want to see FWP get on the defense real darn quick, call Helena and ask to have a meeting with the licensing department.

I belong to a local sportsmen group and we have had Hank over from licensing more then once to put on a presentation about the drawing process. He seemed open and transparent. He answered all our questions and some of ours guys can be brutal.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I belong to a local sportsmen group and we have had Hank over from licensing more then once to put on a presentation about the drawing process. He seemed open and transparent. He answered all our questions and some of ours guys can be brutal.

I can confirm both Hank's forthrightness & RCFWA's brutality.

 

[BuzzH]

I can confirm both Hank's forthrightness & RCFWA's brutality.

I can confirm that my wife had an issue with being disqualified from the special deer permit about 10 years ago, which was 100% the fault of the FWP. I called and talked to Hank and he seemed like a nice guy. We talked about how to correct the problem and he assured me that he would follow up with conducting an additional drawing as there were about a dozen other people that had the same issue of being wrongly excluded from the draw. He also promised he would call and let me know the results.

I'm still waiting on that call and have been for about 10 years. I'm never impressed when people say one thing, then never deliver. I've no use for that kind of crap, in particular when I pay his wages.