Make a new draw system from scratch.

[noharleyyet]

View attachment 271624

Show me the rules & I'll show you the way around them.
-Jose Cuervo

 

[SC Living Outdoors]

This has more or less been said, but I would do a combo of NM and ID.

Residents and NR.
No points. Random draw.
You get 3 choices for all species.
All big 3 are OIL if you fill your tag.
You can either apply for one big 3 or deer/elk/antelope.
85/10/3/2
85 - R
10 - NR
3 - R-Youth
2 - NR-Youth
Every tag for NR is a draw. No otc.
No outfitter pool or any of that bull.
No tags can be purchased from an individual (land owner). If you want a tag you draw it.
Pay up front.
Takes place in March.

General tags are for residents only and also happen in a draw. Free to enter. 5 choices. Don't have to pay up front but you do have to have a valid hunting license. That way no areas are over hunted and biologist can be more hands on with the number of animals taken from an area. Takes place in May.

Leftover limited and general are sold to anyone fcfs. Takes place in July.

Draw results are posted 3 weeks after the app deadline.
Refunds go out the week after the draw results post.
No returns or transfers. If you draw a tag it's yours.
NR pay 5x what residents pay. Let residents vote on the tag fees they will pay.
All big game animals must be checked in.
Online harvest reports are mandatory and must be completed within 4 weeks of your season ending if you want to hunt the next year.

 

[Dave N]

This is for Dave N:

I cannot find any Dave N OP's and Dave N complained on one of my latest threads that I never add anything to any other person's threads so, Dave, you asked for it, you got it, Toyota: a present from dove-retrieving dogs everywhere and me to YOU! Now come hear me, all you good sportsmen; please clean up after your dogs always (or curb them on the streets) and use trained retrieving dogs to clean up downed birds afield after your collective dove guns go BANG!

 

[Gr8bawana]

So I've been writing up document. Needless to say it's not perfected and I've spent more time on a useless document than I care to admit. I must be mentally challenged to think that this would not only get anywhere, but that it'd actually change anything. Read at your own risk. You've been warned....

Modernized Draw System:

The Purpose of this draw system is designed to encourage serious hunters with a long-term draw system that yields higher odds of drawing a coveted “once-in-a-lifetime” (OIAL) tag while still being economical and revenue generating for state conservation efforts.
The Modernized Draw System (MDS) is species-specific investment draw system that is accomplished by enforcing a mandatory twenty-point “Proving Phase” followed by a “Genesis-Draw-Pool.” During the Proving Phase you must either purchase a point annually or elect to withdraw entirely by filling out a form (electronically). Depending on how many points you have in the proving-phase will determine what refund percentage you are entitled to. For example: A person who withdraws between 1-5 points (level 0) is nonrefundable, 6-8 (level 1) points are rated at 30% refund, 9-11 (level 2) points rated at 40% refund, 12-14 (level 3) points at 50% refund, 15-20 (level 4) points at 60% refund. 21 points and above (level 5) at 70% refund. Refund is based off the highest level you attained. Example: if you reached level 3 then you will be allotted 50% refund of all points accrued starting from point 6 onward. Level 4 will be 60% refund of all points accrued starting at point 6 onward. Level 5 will be allotted 70% refund of all points accrued at point 6 onward. If you elect withdrawal from the system then your points are nullified. If you do not purchase an annual point and fail to decree a withdrawal from the program then your points will nullify and all investments are forfeited to the state conservation program. Anyone who had their point portfolio nullified will start back at 1point in the proving phase upon purchase of their next point.
Entrance into the Genesis Pool is initiated with the purchase of the twenty first point. Once you have been admitted into the Genesis Pool you will be admitted for life without requirement of purchasing an annual point. Once admitted into the Genesis Pool your points will fall back to one point and be squared on an annual basis. Upon purchase of your next point for entrance into the random draw (Genesis Pool) that is limited to entries which meet the aforementioned prerequisites. This process will help ensure the longest applying candidates are the highest odds to draw that ensures a smaller draw pool while still being random for all pool candidates.
At any time, you may elect to withdraw from the Genesis Pool by filing out an electronic form. You will have a reimbursement of your investment with a percentage of up to but not exceeding a 70% refund. Your points will nullify and if you wish to restart in the program you will have to restart the Proving Phase at one point.
The spread of tags will be divided by a 75/25 split between residents and nonresidents respectively. The cost of tags will be at a fixed price that follows the adequate adjustments in respect to annual inflation rates. All species-specific tags will be priced the same regardless of resident status.
As these are once-in-a-lifetime (OIAL) tags, it reflects that once drawn, regardless of harvest or lack thereof. The drawn tag will be the sole tag granted to you by the state for that species in any capacity. Any person that has drawn a tag will automatically be barred from entering that species specific tag raffles. This ensures more people will be able to experience an OIAL hunt.
Requirements for nonresidents to purchase an outfitter is not mandatory. Allowing nonresidents to opt for a non-guided hunt ensures the essence of free market enterprising for the sole proprietor that owns the tag. Consequently this will pressure outfitters into reducing their prices and cutting into their profits. In order to incentivize outfitters to lower their prices, they will be allocated a portion of tags per species per year through an outfitter pool at a fixed price. The Outfitters will then be allowed to auction their tag(s) through their business. Proceeds generated from auctions will be taxed at a lesser rate than other incomes. This promotes options for both the hunter and the outfitter.
If this system were to be granted then there will be four separate drawing pools allocated from the same number of tags granted by the state. Resident/nonresident of the current system and resident/nonresident pools for the new system. The people who have points on the current system will have the option of moving into the new system at a cost of several points, however they will be ahead with the new system. Otherwise, the old system will phase out after < 20 years’ time. Anyone applying after instatement of this document will be put into the Modernized Draw System.
The objective of this draw system is to reward long term investors by ensuring the best draw odds possible for the longest investors simultaneously maintaining a lower financial cost to applicants and accruing higher funds for conservation efforts at the same time allowing flexibility to withdraw and recoup a percentage of funds the applicant has invested with. Also, to ensure fairness between residents and nonresidents as well as outfitters alike.

 

[406dn]

The deal is, all of this is a metaverse fantasy. Every state has an existing system. None of them are perfect, but changing any of them is a political lift of some consequence.

Generally, I do not think any of the western states OWE non residents tags for sheep, moose, or mountain goats. The demand for each far exceeds the supply. None of the states can come remotely close to meeting the demand of their resident hunters. For instance, I've been applying for a bighorn ram tag for over 40 years, without success. That is just the reality for many resident hunters. Good luck with convincing residents to give more tags to non residents. I really doubt that is the direction things will go.

So my metaverse proposal would be the three previously mentioned tags would be one in a lifetime tag. Each tag would be good for two hunting seasons, so that the chance of success would be larger. There would not be preference points, even thou I hold plenty of them for a sheep tag. I think the 90/10 split is pretty close to right, I could be talked into 95/5 more easily than 85/15.

Oh, oh one last wet dream, I draw a Missouri breaks ram tag.

 

[LWC55]

Me, patiently waiting for NM and ID to change to some effed up point scheme......so I can finally get in on the ground floor.

 

[Firedude]

Nobody shoots a damn thing until habitat and objective numbers are secured.

Random for 95-98% of the tags in a given area. 2-5% are bonus/preference mix.
90%/10% mix.
Must apply to get a point.
You draw any tag, go to zero
You wait out if you draw antlered hunts. Wait time depends on demand. 2 to 5 years.
Trophy M/S/G. Wait 5 years if drawn and no harvest. Harvest, 1 and done.
Point system is optional! If you think points are a sceme and random is the way to go. Opt out. I'd put money on most aren't going to do that...


Point systems work JUST FINE if you take the collecting value out of points. If all you use it for is to catch the statistical anomaly that never draws a 1 in 5 odds tag over 30 years THEY WOULD WORK WELL! It's the stacking, scheming, buying that messes them up. How many of you would keep up on your Maveric card if it took 50 punches to get a free soda? Oh you're saving points for that crazy hard to draw sheep tag. You chances are still small no matter how long you wait. Decent buck tag with 10% odds. You'll definitely draw it once with your points, might take you 30 years but by God you'll get one.

 

[Nick87]

100-0
Double resident fee's and kick the non-residents to the curb.

Pump the brakes!

 

[BigHornRam]

Pump the brakes!

You are welcome to become a resident of BHRtopia. Where the taxes are low and the rams are big.

 

[232401a]

So I've been writing up document. Needless to say it's not perfected and I've spent more time on a useless document than I care to admit…

Thank you for your service. With your service related disability, I don’t think you should have to spend so much time on draw system ideas/documents. Are you lined up with the various orgs? Multiple states?

A service related disabled veteran should be kept busy with tags.

PM me about 5/1 if you don’t have at least a decent deer tag lined up yet and I will try to make sure you get a donated buck tag (a pretty good one).

 

[WapitiBob]

At least we can all breath easy knowing none of these hair brained schemes are going past these forum pages.

 

[Trap]

So I've been writing up document. Needless to say it's not perfected and I've spent more time on a useless document than I care to admit. I must be mentally challenged to think that this would not only get anywhere, but that it'd actually change anything. Read at your own risk. You've been warned....

Modernized Draw System:

The Purpose of this draw system is designed to encourage serious hunters with a long-term draw system that yields higher odds of drawing a coveted “once-in-a-lifetime” (OIAL) tag while still being economical and revenue generating for state conservation efforts.
The Modernized Draw System (MDS) is species-specific investment draw system that is accomplished by enforcing a mandatory twenty-point “Proving Phase” followed by a “Genesis-Draw-Pool.” During the Proving Phase you must either purchase a point annually or elect to withdraw entirely by filling out a form (electronically). Depending on how many points you have in the proving-phase will determine what refund percentage you are entitled to. For example: A person who withdraws between 1-5 points (level 0) is nonrefundable, 6-8 (level 1) points are rated at 30% refund, 9-11 (level 2) points rated at 40% refund, 12-14 (level 3) points at 50% refund, 15-20 (level 4) points at 60% refund. 21 points and above (level 5) at 70% refund. Refund is based off the highest level you attained. Example: if you reached level 3 then you will be allotted 50% refund of all points accrued starting from point 6 onward. Level 4 will be 60% refund of all points accrued starting at point 6 onward. Level 5 will be allotted 70% refund of all points accrued at point 6 onward. If you elect withdrawal from the system then your points are nullified. If you do not purchase an annual point and fail to decree a withdrawal from the program then your points will nullify and all investments are forfeited to the state conservation program. Anyone who had their point portfolio nullified will start back at 1point in the proving phase upon purchase of their next point.
Entrance into the Genesis Pool is initiated with the purchase of the twenty first point. Once you have been admitted into the Genesis Pool you will be admitted for life without requirement of purchasing an annual point. Once admitted into the Genesis Pool your points will fall back to one point and be squared on an annual basis. Upon purchase of your next point for entrance into the random draw (Genesis Pool) that is limited to entries which meet the aforementioned prerequisites. This process will help ensure the longest applying candidates are the highest odds to draw that ensures a smaller draw pool while still being random for all pool candidates.
At any time, you may elect to withdraw from the Genesis Pool by filing out an electronic form. You will have a reimbursement of your investment with a percentage of up to but not exceeding a 70% refund. Your points will nullify and if you wish to restart in the program you will have to restart the Proving Phase at one point.
The spread of tags will be divided by a 75/25 split between residents and nonresidents respectively. The cost of tags will be at a fixed price that follows the adequate adjustments in respect to annual inflation rates. All species-specific tags will be priced the same regardless of resident status.
As these are once-in-a-lifetime (OIAL) tags, it reflects that once drawn, regardless of harvest or lack thereof. The drawn tag will be the sole tag granted to you by the state for that species in any capacity. Any person that has drawn a tag will automatically be barred from entering that species specific tag raffles. This ensures more people will be able to experience an OIAL hunt.
Requirements for nonresidents to purchase an outfitter is not mandatory. Allowing nonresidents to opt for a non-guided hunt ensures the essence of free market enterprising for the sole proprietor that owns the tag. Consequently this will pressure outfitters into reducing their prices and cutting into their profits. In order to incentivize outfitters to lower their prices, they will be allocated a portion of tags per species per year through an outfitter pool at a fixed price. The Outfitters will then be allowed to auction their tag(s) through their business. Proceeds generated from auctions will be taxed at a lesser rate than other incomes. This promotes options for both the hunter and the outfitter.
If this system were to be granted then there will be four separate drawing pools allocated from the same number of tags granted by the state. Resident/nonresident of the current system and resident/nonresident pools for the new system. The people who have points on the current system will have the option of moving into the new system at a cost of several points, however they will be ahead with the new system. Otherwise, the old system will phase out after < 20 years’ time. Anyone applying after instatement of this document will be put into the Modernized Draw System.
The objective of this draw system is to reward long term investors by ensuring the best draw odds possible for the longest investors simultaneously maintaining a lower financial cost to applicants and accruing higher funds for conservation efforts at the same time allowing flexibility to withdraw and recoup a percentage of funds the applicant has invested with. Also, to ensure fairness between residents and nonresidents as well as outfitters alike.

Wtf? draw systems are broken in many states no level of complexity or confusion or new ideas can fix them. Idaho is by far the best-no points and pick your 1 choice msg or deer, elk, antelope. Only change I would make is pick 1 choice to apply for each year period. If you apply for elk no draw for deer or antelope. Some of the states could solve some point creep right now with one change-pick 1 special draw per year rule. Too many hunters are putting in for every possible draw since most states require buying the license. Keep the 2 year wait after drawn on deer, elk, antelope and msg oil wether you harvest or not.

 

[232401a]

Some of the states could solve some point creep right now with one change-pick 1 special draw per year rule.

This is not how math works.

 

[Hircine]

Thank you for your service. With your service related disability, I don’t think you should have to spend so much time on draw system ideas/documents. Are you lined up with the various orgs? Multiple states?

A service related disabled veteran should be kept busy with tags.

PM me about 5/1 if you don’t have at least a decent deer tag lined up yet and I will try to make sure you get a donated buck tag (a pretty good one).

I am new to hunting so I don't know specific organizations but I have looked up some things about states offering discounts or not.
I'm 70% disabled but in far better condition than the people who have lost limbs eyes etc. I'm just a previous maintainer who's body started degrading from the job.

 

[Hircine]

Wtf? draw systems are broken in many states no level of complexity or confusion or new ideas can fix them.

I never thought the document I wrote would be anything of serious value. I'm a guy who's never hunted before! It was more of a writing exercise for me which still failed. But at least it's creative. This thread was supposed to allow people to get creative with their ideas and maybe throw some outlandish yet entertaining ideas around and have a good time.

 

[ImBillT]

What percent of tags do NRs get in Wyoming region G compared to Wyoming general tags for deer? How about general elk?

I think you need to look a little closer and sharpen that pencil.

I look at MT, ID and WY as giving NR’s their split on limited entry, and the general tags as a bonus. Because general tags are unlimited for residents, it’s hard to give NR’s a percentage based split. 10% of infinity being infinity and all. On top of that, NRs don’t get general tags in those states related to any percentage based reasoning. Their legislatures put a number of NR tags into law for funding purposes and their game departments figured out various ways to meet that requirement while still limiting NR limited entry tags to a level that residents would accept. You can make a case that considering it a bonus on top of the NR split is wrong if you want.

I still don’t see the number of states you named as qualifying as “industry standard” or “the norm”. Yeah it’s out there, and not uncommon, but so are other splits.

 

[ImBillT]

Huh? you must live somewhere with no tags any NR would want.

AZ is about as strict a 90/10 state as exists.
NM is a 6% NR DIY allocation state (10% outfitter allocation is BS – that doesn’t count as NR allocation…).
Oregon? 3-6% NR on many species
CA? 99.9% to 0.01% ratio on elk/sheep?
NV: very strict 90/10
ID & MT are strict 90/10 on the higher quality tags.
UT: Very strict 90/10 on quality tags
SD/ND/NE: 100/0 states on various species.
ME/VT/NH: all <10% NR

I’m not giving you NM because there are almost ZERO residents in the outfitter pool. Why? There are only a handful of tags in the state that have better odds in the outfitter pool than the resident pool. When a resident complains that NRs get better odds because of the outfitter pool, it’s true that they can get into that pool as easily as an NR, so that’s a poor argument, but NM still gives way over 10% of public draw tags to NRs.

Even though I look at ID and MT differently because of the general tag, I’ll count them for the purposes of this argument.

I agree that AZ is the closest, and even they have exceptions.

So removing NM from your list we have 13 states. Is 13/50 the norm? Is it “everyone else is 90/10, we should be too!”. Is it “industry standard”? Not in my mind.

 

[ImBillT]

This has more or less been said, but I would do a combo of NM and ID.

Residents and NR.
No points. Random draw.
You get 3 choices for all species.
All big 3 are OIL if you fill your tag.
You can either apply for one big 3 or deer/elk/antelope.
85/10/3/2
85 - R
10 - NR
3 - R-Youth
2 - NR-Youth
Every tag for NR is a draw. No otc.
No outfitter pool or any of that bull.
No tags can be purchased from an individual (land owner). If you want a tag you draw it.
Pay up front.
Takes place in March.

General tags are for residents only and also happen in a draw. Free to enter. 5 choices. Don't have to pay up front but you do have to have a valid hunting license. That way no areas are over hunted and biologist can be more hands on with the number of animals taken from an area. Takes place in May.

Leftover limited and general are sold to anyone fcfs. Takes place in July.

Draw results are posted 3 weeks after the app deadline.
Refunds go out the week after the draw results post.
No returns or transfers. If you draw a tag it's yours.
NR pay 5x what residents pay. Let residents vote on the tag fees they will pay.
All big game animals must be checked in.
Online harvest reports are mandatory and must be completed within 4 weeks of your season ending if you want to hunt the next year.

I really like that.

I have no problem with purchasing private land tags. BUT, participation in the draw should disqualify you from purchasing any type of private land tag. You should have to choose one or the other. By doing it this way, private land tags actually take people out of the draw.

 

[SC Living Outdoors]

I really like that.

I have no problem with purchasing private land tags. BUT, participation in the draw should disqualify you from purchasing any type of private land tag. You should have to choose one or the other. By doing it this way, private land tags actually take people out of the draw.

I can agree with that.

 

[Trap]

This is not how math works.

Tell me how it works.