Lets stir the pot

[Slydog]

This is the same ol'same ol'question that realy never gets an answer.

If a coyote that you call in and then miss on one day and the same coyote refuses to come to your call the next day, is it conditioned responce or learned behavior?


slydog

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 06-28-2003 10:34: Message edited by: Slydog ]</font>

 

[Maineiac the original]

What a question

 

[Dick Reece]

Conditioned response is Pavlov's dog salivating at the sound of the bell.A coyote that quits responding so readily to calls after being shot at for the first time,has learned that behaviour,it is not conditioning unless several people have missed him before.

Older ducks exhibit conditioned response when they won't decoy to a set or any calling.

 

[Doug]

Thats a good answer Seldomever, and I agree. It's a learned response. Now what I can't believe is that Slydog has ever missed a coyote.

Doug

 

[Slydog]

Well sir,
The first 10 years I hunted coyotes, it was for fun and for money.
The last 24 years it has been for revenge.

Its funny, I can hit the hung dogs, you know the ones that hang up at 300 yards but I'll be darned if I can hit the ones at 20 yards at least on the first shot,,,LOL

sly

 

[ColdNosed]

SE, Consider that there could be more to this than we see on the surface. The potential for a coyote to experience negative reinforcement when responding to distress sounds is great. Especially, if it is a young-less-dominant coyote we are talking about.

Maybe that coyote responded to several distress sounds in that 24 hour period. He got shot at once, got beaten by the wings of a Golden Eagle, Got chased off by a more dominant coyote, maybe even about became a side dish for a Big Kitty with a long tail.

I don’t know just throwing things out there.

Slydog, when they get that close my first shot may as well go straight in the air too.

 

[Dick Reece]

You are right CN,but on the whole that combination of things or variations thereof won't happen too often,the odds are against it ? Maybe the occasional tough to call coyote ?

It would be a hard thing to prove either way,almost too hard to establish controls in an experiment,with the many variables you've mentioned.

 

[ColdNosed]

Difficult if not impossible to prove is exactly why this question never gets answered, but it is interesting to hear others thoughts about it.

 

[Slydog]

Coldnosed,
This is the reason I brought this question back up. None of us know it all, even though we may think so, I think we all want to know more about the sport. By shairing our ideas and thoughts with each other we are learning and growing with this sport we all love. None of us will ever agree about anything except that we love to hunt predators.

Through chit-chat like this we all broden our thoughts and I for one learn from everyone here. Thats why I'm here, to learn and to pass what I've learned to the newbies.

This exchange of thought and idea is what seperates us from the beasts.

slydog

 

[Pup]

It is a learned response, because I "missed" an opportunity. lol...

later pup

 

[Maineiac the original]

Pup, you have figured it out. Well put.

 

[ColdNosed]

Slydog, I agree I have learned a great deal lurking around these boards. I’m impressed with the knowledge that resides on the internet, and the many willing to share and explain their methods and experiences.

Pup, I have “missed” more opportunities than I care to admit. I guess I’m sllooooow. LOL

 

[Dick Reece]

Hell,better to have tried and missed,than never to have tried at all!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 07-01-2003 05:20: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]</font>

 

[White Raven]

Ok, learned response.... Dog hears call, dog hear bang, dog fears call

I remember in my Phsyc 110 class we studied Pavlov's Dog. But I also remember reading about a study with a Baby (I think they said it's name was Herman) and a loud banging noise.

The baby was introduced to a bunny over and over until the baby got used to it and played with it happily. Then they put the baby in the usual room and introduced the bunny, when the baby went to reach for it a loud banging sound was made. The baby screamed and fell over(Atleast that's what the text book says) They did this over and over for some time and eventually the baby started screaming at the sight of the bunny, even if there was no noise. The text book called it a conditioned response.

There was some speculation as to whether or not the kid was being traumitized. Apparently the kid starting screaming at anything furry, including stuffed animals. The baby's parents got mad and took the kid out of the study and to another shrink. The other shirnk said that the baby screaming at anything furry was a learned response. The new shrinks then started the study over in reverse. They brought the bunny to the baby over and over again after without the bang and after six months the baby loved the bunny again. The baby went on to live a happy life fear-free of bunnys and other furry things.

So could a Yote become skiddish of a call due to the big bang, but then after a period of time of hearing over and over again without a gun going off, eventually become comfortable enough that it would be drawn in again?

Just a thought... Don't mind me, I never know what I'm talking about anyway

Love, Raven

 

[Dick Reece]

Yep,that could happen,easily enough in the wild too.But that would be a conditioned response,in both instances? Conditioned responses involve repetition,it's how we teach a dog.A learned response is like a kid touching a hot stove,it's not likely to happen again,no matter how many times the kid touches a cold stove. Of course,there is reinforcement from the parent when it happens.I guess one way the coyote might really learn the lesson to the point that no positive reoccurence would undo the learning, would be if the coyote were wounded the first time it happened.Nicked maybe?

Discussing this kind of thing makes me laugh at myself,all I can do is make an educated guess? It reminds me of the first time the Sopranos aired,where Tony Soprano went to the psychiatrist, and at one point he says, "Hey,I went to college a semester and a half,so I understand Freud"!, hahahahaha!

What a Dork that guy was!

 

[1_pointer]

What is the difference between a conditioned response and a learned behavior? Isn't each a level of the same thing?

FWIW, there's a prof at Utah St. that believes that all behavior is learned!

 

[Dick Reece]

Learned behaviour is learned the first time something occurs,condition involves repetition,like teaching a dog to sit on command by rewarding him each time he does.Ask the proffessor the coyote called and missed question,and tell us what he says ?

 

[Maineiac the original]

At every drive through my choc. lab Sampson expects a treat to come out of that little window. Condishined response or learned behavior, or a little of both.

I think that as far as coyotes go it is probably the same a missed oppertunity condishined and learned them reel good. So I say a little of both.

 

[Maineiac the original]

Also one of the reasons we respect coyotes so much, they are smart enough to be taught.

 

[NASA]

1_pointer has a .....point. Think back to grammar school. Multiplication tables. How did you "learn"? Repetition. How do you "condition" your hunting dog? Repetition. And what "educates" a coyote? Repetition (of a careless tactic). I will freely admit that it took me a lot longer to learn my 9X table than it takes the average coyote to learn that rabbit screams coming from inside a pickup truck crusing down a dirt road is something to be avoided, LOL! IMHO, there is no significant difference between learned and conditioned response. It seems to be more a matter of semantics than one of technique or practice.