Lead Shot Ban

[MTLabrador]

Between this and the GoHunt thread I missed some entertaining shit while I was up in the mountains. I did find a few bulls that might meet a 166 Hammer this fall.

 

[Otto Matic]

Between this and the GoHunt thread I missed some entertaining shit while I was up in the mountains. I did find a few bulls that might meet a 166 Hammer this fall.

Congrats MTLabrador. Hope you're able to relocate them this fall......and you don't have to haul him out whole.

 

[Otto Matic]

"... As a result of litigation concerning these researchers’ failure to produce all of the underlying data related to that paper, however, they admitted that some of the data collected for the paper was deliberately not included in the data set that resulted in the conclusions published in the paper. ..."

5 Yr. Lead Ammo Ban Fails To Reduce Levels of Lead In Condors | Hunt For Truth

UCSC researchers now admit that "lead exposures continue" and Condor blood-levels have not dropped since the AB 821 ban went into effect in 2008.

www.huntfortruth.org

Why won't UCSC release all the research data?

 

[antlerradar]

The quickest way to get bad science is to combine science with politics or religion. I am getting the impression there is lots of politics in a lead bullet ban. Makes it hard to decide what is fact and what is someone trying to yank your chain.

 

[HONEYBADGER]

"... As a result of litigation concerning these researchers’ failure to produce all of the underlying data related to that paper, however, they admitted that some of the data collected for the paper was deliberately not included in the data set that resulted in the conclusions published in the paper. ..."

5 Yr. Lead Ammo Ban Fails To Reduce Levels of Lead In Condors | Hunt For Truth

UCSC researchers now admit that "lead exposures continue" and Condor blood-levels have not dropped since the AB 821 ban went into effect in 2008.

www.huntfortruth.org

Why won't UCSC release all the research data?

I have seen Condors pull chunks of asphalt shingles off a cabin in the Sierras. They are not dying from lead....they are dying because they eat anything and everything they can get their beaks on. Lead is the least of their problems.

The study doesn't support their conclusions which is why they wont release it. Like most scientists today, they only report what the politicians or money wants them to report.

I have no problem shooting copper at big game, Hammers and Cutting Edge have worked great for me. The reason for the push is a flat out lie though.

 

[Otto Matic]

Well, yes. I guess so.

But remember, all those other animals aren't as susceptible to lead poison as birds are.

Yes? ...and you have a study to prove your point.

 

[SAJ-99]

Yes? ...and you have a study to prove your point.

I can't find the study HFT says it is citing. I'm sure you can provide it for us?

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Before I go to pasting website links, would a discussion on the banning of lead shot and bullets be of interest?
...or maybe something we (you) are tired of discussing? i.e. beating a dead horse

A vague posting about a mineral started six pages now of discussion. Yes sir, these people love to beat dead horses!

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

EPA shut down our skeet range because there is a slough a couple hundred yards away that has water in it sometimes. We finally had to negotiate with them that we can use it as long as we only use steel shot.

Right there, I think we see science sidelined by politics. All dependent on if shot actually fell into the slough or had potential to do so. But mere proximity to harm is not causation either.

I had a class in college where we analyzed soils on roadsides and under window casements in a city established in the early 19th century. Leaded paint and leaded gasoline was used there longer than it’s not been used there today. Our findings were that lead did not show migration from the edge of the road to the bottom of ditches or from beneath windows and down the hill. At some short depth of soil it was also at considerably less density. This was not peer reviewed and should not be taken as anything more than something worth studying further.
So what was the scientific study done by the EPA to show that the lead from the range caused a direct impact in the slough?

 

[shoots-straight]

Yes? ...and you have a study to prove your point.

I'll rephrase that: We do know how deadly Lead poisoning is at high levels in Birds. Might be just as bad on other animals to. http://home.nps.gov/pinn/learn/nature/upload/0108 Pain.pdf
note the number of pages of studies at the end. 8 pages worth.

 

[VikingsGuy]

"... I know steel loads have been used on waterfowl for a long time but the results I've personally had with steel dove loads isn't very good. Even with #6 running at 1400fps I've had more cripples than I ever did with lead #8. For the last three years I'll get 4-5 cripples in a limit of 15 when I used to get maybe 1 per limit. Changing to a tighter choke hasn't helped. ..."

Several years ago, I watched a gaggle of hunters shooting geese off a wheat field just across the road from my house.
I was unable to count the number of shots, OR the number of geese that fell. But I wondered just how many geese retreated back to the lake carrying steel pellets?

While pricey I shoot lead free HeavyShot in my one classic shotgun. Performs well.

 

[HuntCA]

I have some personal experience with this. My state started enforcing a statewide ban on using lead for hunting a few years ago. We can still target shoot with lead (for now) but hunting with lead including varmints is illegal.

One issue I've run into is lack of availability, you go into a big store like sportsman's with 3 aisles full of ammo and very little of it can legally used for hunting. You're also rolling the dice if your rifle is picky on what it likes, if you only have two copper options in your chambering and neither run accurately you're screwed unless you reload. Ammo availability problems are compounded once they outlawed buying ammo online which further reduces options to what's available locally.

Biggest issue on the rifle side is in 22lr, there are one maybe two copper options and their effective range are pitiful compared to lead.

Performance-wise I've been happy with results (using Barnes tsx mostly), but the lack of options is still annoying if you'd rather try something else. Where I haven't been happy is the performance of steel dove loads. I know steel loads have been used on waterfowl for a long time but the results I've personally had with steel dove loads isn't very good. Even with #6 running at 1400fps I've had more cripples than I ever did with lead #8. For the last three years I'll get 4-5 cripples in a limit of 15 when I used to get maybe 1 per limit. Changing to a tighter choke hasn't helped.

I can understand the environmental reasons to an extent, and human health is an issue as well, but there are definitely some major downsides to going lead free.

Don't forget all of us with vintage shot guns that CAN NOT shoot steel. I have been effectively shut out of two seasons due to this fact. I'm not in a place to lay out a grand for a modern gun at the moment. I have a safe of fantastic vintage guns I can no longer hunt with. Yes there is Bismuth, but try finding that in dove/quail loads and to boot it is almost $50 a box!! So pissed at this stupid state.

 

[HuntCA]

Per some of the articles and research I've done lately, the lead ban in Condor Alley in California had little to no effect on condor mortality due to lead toxicity.
What was discovered is that there are other sources of lead contamination that have no connection to lead shot, bullets or hunters that also affect condors.

Problem is, the "powers that be" refuse to accept anything but "a lead ban will stop the problem".
In fact, they (liberals?) refuse to even look at alternate "scientific" studies and research.

I no longer hunt waterfowl either. But it's because all my shotguns but one are antiques and I refuse to run steel shot.

Absolutely! Solid lead is of no issue, though the myth of it is. The issue is DISSOLVED lead in water/food sources. This is a much more difficult issue to deal with. The shot issue is something tangible that has the added benefit of reducing hunting numbers. Win/win for the anti-crowd.

 

[sierrahunter]

Don't forget all of us with vintage shot guns that CAN NOT shoot steel. I have been effectively shut out of two seasons due to this fact. I'm not in a place to lay out a grand for a modern gun at the moment. I have a safe of fantastic vintage guns I can no longer hunt with. Yes there is Bismuth, but try finding that in dove/quail loads and to boot it is almost $50 a box!! So pissed at this stupid state.

I hear you. I can't afford a Mercedes, so I walk 13 miles to work every day. If only there was another way!

 

[VikingsGuy]

Don't forget all of us with vintage shot guns that CAN NOT shoot steel. I have been effectively shut out of two seasons due to this fact. I'm not in a place to lay out a grand for a modern gun at the moment. I have a safe of fantastic vintage guns I can no longer hunt with. Yes there is Bismuth, but try finding that in dove/quail loads and to boot it is almost $50 a box!! So pissed at this stupid state.

FWIW - compared to the other costs of hunting, a box of bismuth ammo is a rounding error. If you didn't hunt it was because that was your choice, not something that was done to you.

 

[Otto Matic]

Don't forget all of us with vintage shot guns that CAN NOT shoot steel. I have been effectively shut out of two seasons due to this fact. I'm not in a place to lay out a grand for a modern gun at the moment. I have a safe of fantastic vintage guns I can no longer hunt with. Yes there is Bismuth, but try finding that in dove/quail loads and to boot it is almost $50 a box!! So pissed at this stupid state.

Had shoulder replacement surgery, so I can no longer shoot my Rem 870 12 ga right handed. A good friend gave me an older Mossberg bolt action .410 to hunt turkey with.
Like to have NEVER found some of the 3" tungsten ammo Federal makes.
Ten, I'll repeat that, "TEN" (two 5 round boxes) rounds of Federal 3", #9 tungsten shot cost me $60!!!!!!
That's SIX DAMN DOLLARS A SHELL!
I'm gonna kill a turkey with it if it harelips the governor!

 

[VikingsGuy]

I'm gonna kill a turkey with it if it harelips the governor!

I am not entirely sure what this means, but it is my number 1 favorite HT comment of 2021!

 

[Otto Matic]

FWIW - compared to the other costs of hunting, a box of bismuth ammo is a rounding error. If you didn't hunt it was because that was your choice, not something that was done to you.

Some of us have been more fortunate in life. Some of us just didn't make the best (right?) decisions.
I can "purchase a box of bismuth", but that's not the same as "afford a box of bismuth". Same thing with 2 boxes of .410 tungsten at $30/box!
I'm happy for you that you can see the price as a "rounding error". You've been blessed.
It's the bottom of the hunting community who are being hurt and they deserve the same opportunities.
The insanity of the lead ban forces them to either quit hunting or scrimp and save before a Saturday afield or a season opener.

 

[Otto Matic]

I am not entirely sure what this means, but it is my number 1 favorite HT comment of 2021!

It means that after spending $60 on 10 shells, I will do everything I can to kill at least ONE turkey with the stuff. LOL!

Or add it to my will as part of my estate! !

 

[VikingsGuy]

Some of us have been more fortunate in life. Some of us just didn't make the best (right?) decisions.
I can "purchase a box of bismuth", but that's not the same as "afford a box of bismuth". Same thing with 2 boxes of .410 tungsten at $30/box!
I'm happy for you that you can see the price as a "rounding error". You've been blessed.
It's the bottom of the hunting community who are being hurt and they deserve the same opportunities.
The insanity of the lead ban forces them to either quit hunting or scrimp and save before a Saturday afield or a season opener.

Fair enough. I do care about the whole range of hunters and their opportunities, but on this forum I tend to first think of out-of-state and big game hunting that is pricey no matter how you slice it, and not about hunting birds/small game local or on your own land.