Lead Shot Ban

[Hydrophilic]

I've located several articles that aren't "anti lead ban", but present information and research data that states the lead ban is pretty much a waste.
Google "lead ammo ban" and you will find article after article after article of "research"(?) supporting the banning of lead, both shot and bullets and just how deadly lead is.

Now try and Google for articles saying the lead ban is not necessary.
You will find very few, but your search will still bring up multiple "lead ban" articles.

Before you get all bent out of shape, I'm not saying a lead ban is "bad", but is it "necessary"?

I think there are some agendas thrown into it, I also think there is a lot of truth to it. I am willing to read any articles you post without judgement. I believe there was a meateater podcast on the topic and Jim Heffelfinger, who I enjoy listening to at times, went over the different scenarios where he believed lead free ammo was and wasn't justified. Might be worth checking out.

I believe in Oregon the OHA, BHA, and others are working with ODFW on a program to encourage voluntary lead-free ammo use in hunting. I don't know the specifics but a person can put their finger up and easily see which way the wind is blowing. Condor re-introduction in Oregon is likely to happen in the coming decades and hunters will need to carefully choose which voice they will put forward.

 

[Cheesehead]

Too soon?

 

[Otto Matic]

The myth of “poisonous” lead ammo

Lead poisoning ammo*** Lead poisoning reloading ammo*** Lead poisoning ammunition debate***

www.all4shooters.com

Myths Debunked — Hunt forTruth.orgHunt-for-Truth

www.huntfortruth.org

I read your link. Very interesting.
Here's some research that disagrees.
I've no reason to doubt the truthfulness of any of the researchers on any of the links.

1) the number of "research papers" that assure us the lead ban is unnecessary are probably outnumbered 10:1 "for" a lead ban.
2) The number of research papers for or against doesn't matter. What matters is which data (datum?) is correct.
3) If you read any research paper with preconceived notions, you will tend to ignore the truthfulness that doesn't fit those notions.
4) You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. - George Will

 

[shoots-straight]

I've located several articles that aren't "anti lead ban", but present information and research data that states the lead ban is pretty much a waste.
Google "lead ammo ban" and you will find article after article after article of "research"(?) supporting the banning of lead, both shot and bullets and just how deadly lead is.

Now try and Google for articles saying the lead ban is not necessary.
You will find very few, but your search will still bring up multiple "lead ban" articles.

Before you get all bent out of shape, I'm not saying a lead ban is "bad", but is it "necessary"?

Here's some other research on Lead bullets you might not have seen. Filmed and researched right here where I live.
LEADED

 

[Gerald Martin]

Too soon?
View attachment 186182

Don’t mock. You don’t know the deprivation of not having the ability to lick lead painted walls like this guy.^^^^
If you knew what’s been taken from you, you would be angry too.

I agree that steel shot sucks for killing waterfowl. (No snark.)

 

[shoots-straight]

BTW, I'm not using any lead, in anything, that might kill birds indirectly. More than likely, I'm responsible for some deaths in the past. One can only hope that what you learn from the past will help you become more responsible as a hunter.

 

[Otto Matic]

I think there are some agendas thrown into it, I also think there is a lot of truth to it. I am willing to read any articles you post without judgement. I believe there was a meateater podcast on the topic and Jim Heffelfinger, who I enjoy listening to at times, went over the different scenarios where he believed lead free ammo was and wasn't justified. Might be worth checking out.

I believe in Oregon the OHA, BHA, and others are working with ODFW on a program to encourage voluntary lead-free ammo use in hunting. I don't know the specifics but a person can put their finger up and easily see which way the wind is blowing. Condor re-introduction in Oregon is likely to happen in the coming decades and hunters will need to carefully choose which voice they will put forward.

I posted 2 links above. (#23) Here are a couple more.

NRA-ILA | Traditional Ammunition (Lead)

Established in 1975, the Institute for Legislative Action (ILA) is the "lobbying" arm of the National Rifle Association of America. ILA is responsible for preserving the right of all law-abiding individuals in the legislative, political, and legal arenas, to purchase, possess and use firearms...

www.nraila.org

TheSnipeHunter.com - The Lead Shot Myth

Latest Shot Fired In Lead Ammo Debate

A House bill would ban lead ammunition on U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services land, which encompasses more than 95 million acres across the country, including prime hunting ground.

gunsandamerica.org

A lot of my skepticism comes from my experience in the water industry.

We had a saying:

"The solution to pollution is dilution."

When you consider the amount of lead shot (or fragments) that must be introduced into an environment to actually have an effect is unbelieveable.
The amount of carrion a condor (or eagle) would have to ingest to acquire THAT much lead is like a lifetime.
One of those articles states that condors are also subject to multiple sources of lead beyond what is deposited by hunters and is probably much more detrimental.

Anyway. Good reading. Enjoy.

 

[jryoung]

Eight years is a good while. Leadse to believe that we should be seeing some significant results by now. Not just with one species, but multiple other aspects as well.

The Kelly study illustrated the benefits to turkey vultures and golden eagles during the Ridley-Tree period.

I believe the Jackson hole study mirrors these results as well.

Impact of the California Lead Ammunition Ban on Reducing Lead Exposure in Golden Eagles and Turkey Vultures

Predatory and scavenging birds may be exposed to high levels of lead when they ingest shot or bullet fragments embedded in the tissues of animals injured or killed with lead ammunition. Lead poisoning was a contributing factor in the decline of the endangered California condor population in the...

journals.plos.org

Unfortunately these discussions always lead to ban or no ban which gets people to entrenched into tribalism, as opposed to thoughtful discussion and folks voluntarily considering a switch during hunting season.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

The Kelly study illustrated the benefits to turkey vultures and golden eagles during the Ridley-Tree period.

I believe the Jackson hole study mirrors these results as well.

Impact of the California Lead Ammunition Ban on Reducing Lead Exposure in Golden Eagles and Turkey Vultures

Predatory and scavenging birds may be exposed to high levels of lead when they ingest shot or bullet fragments embedded in the tissues of animals injured or killed with lead ammunition. Lead poisoning was a contributing factor in the decline of the endangered California condor population in the...

journals.plos.org

Unfortunately these discussions always lead to ban or no ban which gets people to entrenched into tribalism, as opposed to thoughtful discussion and folks voluntarily considering a switch during hunting season.

What if you gave a preference point for each case of ammo purchased?

 

[jryoung]

What if you gave a preference point for each case of ammo purchased?

Preference points would still be a pyramid scheme.

 

[mtmuley]

Here's some other research on Lead bullets you might not have seen. Filmed and researched right here where I live.
LEADED

How many golden eagles are in the Root? mtmuley

 

[Otto Matic]

The Kelly study illustrated the benefits to turkey vultures and golden eagles during the Ridley-Tree period.

I believe the Jackson hole study mirrors these results as well.

Impact of the California Lead Ammunition Ban on Reducing Lead Exposure in Golden Eagles and Turkey Vultures

Predatory and scavenging birds may be exposed to high levels of lead when they ingest shot or bullet fragments embedded in the tissues of animals injured or killed with lead ammunition. Lead poisoning was a contributing factor in the decline of the endangered California condor population in the...

journals.plos.org

Unfortunately these discussions always lead to ban or no ban which gets people to entrenched into tribalism, as opposed to thoughtful discussion and folks voluntarily considering a switch during hunting season.

...and here we go.

"... folks voluntarily considering a switch during hunting season. ..."

....and if a civil discussion should decide on the continuing use of lead shot, would you continue to use lead shot?

The problem, to me, is that the "nontoxic" folks think the "lead" people should "voluntarily" switch. But when it's proven the "ban" is ineffective in reducing lead poisoning, they STILL want everyone to switch to "nontoxic".
There is no conceding that lead is ok to use.
So the entrenchment digs deeper trenches and nothing is settled and the battle gets more bitter.

 

[Otto Matic]

What if you gave a preference point for each case of ammo purchased?

Toward what end?
One box of lead ammo for every case of steel ammo purchased?

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Preference points would still be a pyramid scheme.

I'll sell you some...

Bitcoins preferred

 

[jryoung]

I don't want anyone to switch.... I just prefer people look at the data and realize that it is possible lead left in a gut pile could lead to the death of a scavenger.

There are other options as well to reduce the lead left and carrion without a voluntary switch of ammunition.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Toward what end?
One box of lead ammo for every case of steel ammo purchased?

Maybe?

 

[Otto Matic]

I don't want anyone to switch.... I just prefer people look at the data and realize that it is possible lead left in a gut pile could lead to the death of a scavenger.

There are other options as well to reduce the lead left and carrion without a voluntary switch of ammunition.

Okay. ......and if you found out that copper, tungsten and bismuth were more toxic than just lead and steel accounted to more lost game?

"... There are other options as well to reduce the lead left ..."
...and what might those options be?

 

[Otto Matic]

Maybe?

Why not a box of steel ammo for every case of lead ammo?

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Why not a box of steel ammo for every case of lead ammo?

Great idea.

 

[Hydrophilic]

I posted 2 links above. (#23) Here are a couple more.

NRA-ILA | Traditional Ammunition (Lead)

Established in 1975, the Institute for Legislative Action (ILA) is the "lobbying" arm of the National Rifle Association of America. ILA is responsible for preserving the right of all law-abiding individuals in the legislative, political, and legal arenas, to purchase, possess and use firearms...

www.nraila.org

TheSnipeHunter.com - The Lead Shot Myth

Latest Shot Fired In Lead Ammo Debate

A House bill would ban lead ammunition on U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services land, which encompasses more than 95 million acres across the country, including prime hunting ground.

gunsandamerica.org

A lot of my skepticism comes from my experience in the water industry.

We had a saying:

"The solution to pollution is dilution."

When you consider the amount of lead shot (or fragments) that must be introduced into an environment to actually have an effect is unbelieveable.
The amount of carrion a condor (or eagle) would have to ingest to acquire THAT much lead is like a lifetime.
One of those articles states that condors are also subject to multiple sources of lead beyond what is deposited by hunters and is probably much more detrimental.

Anyway. Good reading. Enjoy.

Otto, your links are heavily centered on lobby groups for the shooting industry, and less centered on research or substance. For example, the NRA and The National Shooting Sports Foundation (The gun industry’s largest lobbying group). From the latter:

“This is a policy that really isn’t designed to help wildlife conservation, but is designed to punish hunters,” Oliva said, “is designed to actually disinterest and put obstacles in the way of people being able to access the outdoors.”

IMO, it’s a large leap to skip meaningful dialogue and outright claim the focus of non-lead policies are intentionally designed to punish hunters, disinterest hunters, and place obstacles in the way of hunters. There is no way she can remotely prove that and it’s not really relevant to an honest discussion on the validity behind a lead shot ban. I guess what it comes down to is whether or not you believe there is a top secret agenda behind it all. I do not and I think it’s a bad look for hunters to put their conspiracy beliefs forward into the public debate which is full of wildlife advocates and conservation groups. I deal with these groups fairly often and hunters get a lot of eye rolls, sometimes deservingly so. That does not mean I’m right, just my opinion. My post is meant as respectfully as possible. Have a good day, cheers.