lead free ammo

[junior88]

When you are lucky enough to draw a kaibab tag AZGFD gives you a coupon for a free box of lead free ammo redeemable at cabela's. they do this to prevent the california condors from getting lead poisoning from gut piles. From previous tags i picked up federal premium in 270 and 308. other choices include winchester e tip, barnes vor tx, black hills gold, and hornady superformance. i really like federal but was thinking about trying one of the others. what do you guys think? any experience good or bad? thanks

 

[Big Fin]

I drew the Strip in 2007. I ordered the lead-free Federal Premium for that hunt. It shot very well out of my rifle. Since I still have that tag in my drawer, I cannot tell you how it performed on a Strip mule deer.

 

[npaden]

I really like the Winchester E-tips. They shoot well out of my rifle (7mm Rem Mag) and perform excellent. I've recovered 2 of them, both out of mule deer shot at close range and the expansion was text book with 99% weight retention.

 

[junior88]

Thanks. That's good to know. Fin that really sucks to have to eat a strip tag. However after following your AZ antelope hunt last year and all the bucks you passed up i can just imagine some of the deer you let go.

 

[Jwill]

I'm going to try the Hornady GMX this season, though I don't have a strip tag

 

[sweetnectar]

I really like the Winchester E-tips. They shoot well out of my rifle (7mm Rem Mag) and perform excellent. I've recovered 2 of them, both out of mule deer shot at close range and the expansion was text book with 99% weight retention.

Why were you able to recover them? Seems like every 30-06 round (with lead) that I've ever hit a mule deer with at close and long ranges passed through and are not recoverable. I figured a 7mm at close range wound poke a hole right through a mule deer. Now I'm wondering if a less dense bullet (100% copper) doesn't penetrate as deep??? Very interesting.

 

[jryoung]

I had great results with fed premium with 160 tsx in my 7 RM....so much so that I delayed reloading for a while because they were consistently .75" @ 100yds. I'd be very interested in trying the Barnes loads though to see if they produce similar results. I just got a 300 WSM and won't have time to develop a load so Im going to grab a box and see if they shoot.

 

[npaden]

Here are the two E-tips I recovered.

The one on the left two of the petals didn't fold over so I imagine it did a lot of tumbling as it went through. I shot the deer in the chest as it was directly facing me and I recovered the bullet just inside the skin before it entered the right hindquarter. It did go through some bone, but just ribs.

The one on the right was a severe quartering away shot and entered just in front of the left hindquarter and stopped inside the skin on his chest. It didn't hit any bone that I could tell.

Both shots were under 75 yards on quick shots as they got up out of their beds.

I've shot 2 elk and another mule deer on your standard broadside shots and didn't recover those bullets.

 

[----]

Why were you able to recover them? Seems like every 30-06 round (with lead) that I've ever hit a mule deer with at close and long ranges passed through and are not recoverable. I figured a 7mm at close range wound poke a hole right through a mule deer. Now I'm wondering if a less dense bullet (100% copper) doesn't penetrate as deep??? Very interesting.

Copper is way more dense than lead, they'll penetrate more. A sample size of one tells you nothing.

 

[sweetnectar]

I shot the deer in the chest as it was directly facing me and I recovered the bullet just inside the skin before it entered the right hindquarter

Now that makes sense that you could recover a bullet. I was thinking you shot it broadside and was baffled that it didn't pass through.

Copper is way more dense than lead, they'll penetrate more. A sample size of one tells you nothing.

Randy-I think you've got your wires crossed...look at the density of Pb (11.34grams/cm cubed) vs Cu (8.94grams/cm cubed). So to achieve a 180 grain bullet in copper, the bullet has to be larger then that of a more dense bullet made of lead or gold. In order to accomplish this in the same caliber the bullet has to be more elongated when made solely of copper to reach the same grain weight as a bullet made from a more dense material. Now that a copper bullet is larger in size with that comes more surface area. More surface area starts to work against you when you add in a cross wind. So long story short, your more accurate bullets (or less effected by cross wind) at long ranges are those made with some sort of high density material. When npaden mentioned he was able to recover the copper rounds it got my attention that there was something missing but makes sense the way the animal was turned.

 

[slamdmini]

ive shot the hornady gmx in .243 and .270. but only at the range. both worked extremely well, and were very accurate. didnt seem to shoot any different than all the lead ammo ive used before. ive also used the barnes vor-tx in .243 and had the same results. hopefully ill be able to tell u how it works on deer in just a few weeks, since me and my dad hunting in cali this year

 

[THWAK1]

I shot my Shiras moose at 90 yards, quartering towards me. I was using my .300 WinMag and 180gr Barnes bullets. The entry hole was between his front left shoulder and his brisket and the exit hole was in his right rear hind quarter and it busted up his hip along the way. I don't rifle hunt much any more, but when I do, I don't reload anything but Barnes!

 

[----]

Now that makes sense that you could recover a bullet. I was thinking you shot it broadside and was baffled that it didn't pass through.


Randy-I think you've got your wires crossed...look at the density of Pb (11.34grams/cm cubed) vs Cu (8.94grams/cm cubed). So to achieve a 180 grain bullet in copper, the bullet has to be larger then that of a more dense bullet made of lead or gold. In order to accomplish this in the same caliber the bullet has to be more elongated when made solely of copper to reach the same grain weight as a bullet made from a more dense material. Now that a copper bullet is larger in size with that comes more surface area. More surface area starts to work against you when you add in a cross wind. So long story short, your more accurate bullets (or less effected by cross wind) at long ranges are those made with some sort of high density material. When npaden mentioned he was able to recover the copper rounds it got my attention that there was something missing but makes sense the way the animal was turned.

You're right. It looks like copper penetrates more because of weight retention, not density.

 

[mtmuley]

sweetnectar, I'm no ballistician, but with elongated bullets usually comes higher BC values meaning less wind drift. Seems to make sense. Guess it would be a function of bullet shape also. mtmuley

 

[belly-deep]

sweetnectar, I'm no ballistician, but with elongated bullets usually comes higher BC values meaning less wind drift. Seems to make sense. Guess it would be a function of bullet shape also. mtmuley

Elongated bullets have a more aerodynamic shape but when you factor in everything else, a pure copper bullet is not inherently better at overcoming drag and wind deflection just because it is longer.

As a general rule, when two objects weigh the same but have a different density, the denser object will have less drag and wind deflection.

That is why Barnes came out with a tungsten core MRX as a "long range" addition to their line up.

I think the only reason you see higher BCs in all copper bullets is that they are a newer design. Modern lead core bullets like the Accubond and Berger VLD have very high BCs as well

 

[junior88]

thanks for all the info fellas. i've narrowed it down to the barnes vor tx and the hornady superformance. decided to get it for my 270. will choose the 130 grain.

 

[rhomas]

Help, I'm confused! I thought Arizona was one of the states who performed studies on the effects of lead ammo on Condors and other carrion eating birds and discovered no significant impact. So why the push for non-lead alternatives??????? Are they just caving in to the greenie-weenie mentality?????

 

[npaden]

I just ordered 4 more boxes of E-tips.

I use them in states that have no lead ammo restrictions, I just like their performance and accuracy.

Way less meat destroyed on a shoulder shot since the bullet stays together. The bone fragments still make a mess though.

 

[WapitiBob]

I'd shoot the barnes LRX and not look back.

 

[mdunc8]

Help, I'm confused! I thought Arizona was one of the states who performed studies on the effects of lead ammo on Condors and other carrion eating birds and discovered no significant impact. So why the push for non-lead alternatives??????? Are they just caving in to the greenie-weenie mentality?????

Here's a couple papers if you're interested. The first is a review of studies on the topic. The last two are specific to condors.