Know your roads

[Elky Welky]

I'm looking at you mapping apps: knowing if you are on a public or private road can have serious consequences, and I'm not aware of any app yet that has included that information. I've unfortunately followed more than one road (particularly in WY) that looked public on an app but ended in a gate.

As always, innocent until proven guilty, but this is an individual I wouldn't have expected to see make that kind of mistake. In today's MT, however, even just driving to public land can be considered hunting without permission. Be careful not to sneeze in the direction of an orange post, because Johnny Law is on the side of privatization.

https://www.ktvq.com/news/crime-wat...uilty-to-hunting-without-landowner-permission

 

[WanderWoman]

I still have and use the road/cadastral map books you can pick up from the county courthouse. Those provide the most definitive look imo about what you can drive on and what you can’t.

 

[Nameless Range]

Good advice. Spoke to a local search and rescue member just this week who had to go save someone because Google Maps directed folks to drive their car on a 50 inch ATV trail as the best route to a destination.

Also, something quite baffling to me, is that whether many roads are public or private is debatable - not settled unless the courts decide .

 

[atlas]

Avenza has travel plan maps for certain National Forests in MT. I've found instances where the FS had changed the rules since releasing the travel plan but its better than onX for roads

 

[rogerthat]

Gas tax maps are also a good source for information when investigating roads.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

I'm looking at you mapping apps: knowing if you are on a public or private road can have serious consequences, and I'm not aware of any app yet that has included that information. I've unfortunately followed more than one road (particularly in WY) that looked public on an app but ended in a gate.

As always, innocent until proven guilty, but this is an individual I wouldn't have expected to see make that kind of mistake. In today's MT, however, even just driving to public land can be considered hunting without permission. Be careful not to sneeze in the direction of an orange post, because Johnny Law is on the side of privatization.

https://www.ktvq.com/news/crime-wat...uilty-to-hunting-without-landowner-permission

I haven’t even read the link yet, but any easement through private land, which onx has information for, it is legal even by foot, but you must stay on the right of way. Now wearing orange can get us in trouble on the same right of way but if I’m cross country skiing it’s okay?


*after the brief story:
He may have shit the bed. I have no issue finding out if roads are accessible via easements or not. Dammit bud!

 

[WinkB]

Second the Avenza. I had recent conversation with the national forest service folks in my area and they were very clear that if your location / vehicle was not on their approved road it was game over. The app is not as nice to use as say OnX. However they stated it was the tool they would use a guidance to determine compliance. I was using it this year to make sure we were not violating any travel restrictions. I did find that according to OnX they thought it was a road, my paper gazetteer thought it was a road but the forest service says it is not. I found many instances where you see folks were driving down a "road" for miles but according to the forest service, it was technically not a road and must be traveled by foot. If I were to drive down said road for example to hunt or retrieve game they stated I would be in violation and would have to surrender the harvest and potentially face other fines.

 

[WanderWoman]

Second the Avenza. I had recent conversation with the national forest service folks in my area and they were very clear that if your location / vehicle was not on their approved road it was game over. The app is not as nice to use as say OnX. However they stated it was the tool they would use a guidance to determine compliance. I was using it this year to make sure we were not violating any travel restrictions. I did find that according to OnX they thought it was a road, my paper gazetteer thought it was a road but the forest service says it is not. I found many instances where you see folks were driving down a "road" for miles but according to the forest service, it was technically not a road and must be traveled by foot. If I were to drive down said road for example to hunt or retrieve game they stated I would be in violation and would have to surrender the harvest and potentially face other fines.

Avenza is great. I put BMA maps in it too.

 

[44hunter45]

You need to key in on things like new orange posts or no trespass signs. Keep in mind that in some states, like Idaho, the landowner has no obligation to post their land at all.

There is always latency in ownership change details in both OnX and goHunt. You are still responsible to know the correct info. The app companies are not going to provide you a lawyer if you are cited for trespass.

I discussed this with the OnX team in their booth at BHA Rendezvous this year. They named the most difficult counties to keep current by name. It seems not all counties want to play with the mapping app companies. I shared an idea I've had for a new layer with OnX. They did not believe their legal team would let them do it. Those lawyers are to protect them, not the subscriber.

I'm not familiar with Avenza, but will be looking into it. I always go to the Assessor's office parcel map in advance when I have a question. Its online in many places. If not, party like its 1990 and go in to the Assessor's office.

I was cleaning out a 4 drawer file cabinet last winter and found Pendaflex folders full of my old hard-copy plot maps. I had gone to the Assessor's office and looked up the ownership of places I wanted to hunt. I had to pay them the per/page fee to use their photo copier. A nickel a page or something. All the accessible land was highlighted and notated on these legal sized maps I had created. That info was then transferred to USFS visitor and 7.5 minute topo maps which I still have.

I think these skills are akin to being able to use a compass and topo in the event your GPS dies. We should all know how to obtain current ownership and land use without the apps, convenient as they may be.

This knowledge goes both directions. If you are a landowner, you should make an effort to know the historic and current easements on your property before someone drives around your gate. 25 years ago our neighbor's place was for sale. We had a realtor bring a client through our place on a historic rail bed. When I confronted them, they claimed they were on an easement. I called the sheriff and had them removed. I was later able to document that the rail bed easement had been vacated decades before. No doubt the out of state client did not buy the place because the neighbor was a jerk. Welcome to Idaho, Win Win. It was purchased by a young local couple and we have great neighbors on that side.
.

 

[Gebada22]

Are the gas tax maps online? Thanks

 

[Nameless Range]

Are the gas tax maps online? Thanks

Yes.

Experience

experience.arcgis.com

I know folks who have developed these over time. The criteria for is dubious in terms of whether they are public or not. For example, a public road could be posted as private or just wrongfully gated, and the gas tax folks would reject it. Additionally, a road that historically was a gas tax road, just may have degraded enough that a 2wd vehicle can't drive it - maybe the county didn't get to maintenance on it this year, and that road could be rejected.

It's a data point, but it isn't the be-all-end-all.

 

[atlas]

Avenza is great. I put BMA maps in it too.

Didn’t know you could do that

 

[BRI]

Yes.

Experience

experience.arcgis.com

I know folks who have developed these over time. The criteria for is dubious in terms of whether they are public or not. For example, a public road could be posted as private or just wrongfully gated, and the gas tax folks would reject it. Additionally, a road that historically was a gas tax road, just may have degraded enough that a 2wd vehicle can't drive it - maybe the county didn't get to maintenance on it this year, and that road could be rejected.

It's a data point, but it isn't the be-all-end-all.

Yep, I found out not all gas tax roads are public roads. In 2020 while sheep hunting in the breaks with a buddy, I had a map of gas tax roads. There was one road that accessed a corner of BLM and would have been a great access point. I called the county office to confirm and was told it was not public.

 

[Dakotakid]

Yep, I found out not all gas tax roads are public roads. In 2020 while sheep hunting in the breaks with a buddy, I had a map of gas tax roads. There was one road that accessed a corner of BLM and would have been a great access point. I called the county office to confirm and was told it was not public.

the county commissioners are supposed to review and sign off on the gas tax maps each year- adding what has been built and subtracting what has been abandoned. The maps give counties tax money based on miles of road. Sometimes the veracity might not be scrutinized adequately. Sometimes the person adding a piece might have a different motive. Lots of roads were never built but technically exist in petitions.

 

[BRI]

the county commissioners are supposed to review and sign off on the gas tax maps each year- adding what has been built and subtracting what has been abandoned. The maps give counties tax money based on miles of road. Sometimes the veracity might not be scrutinized adequately. Sometimes the person adding a piece might have a different motive. Lots of roads were never built but technically exist in petitions.

Good point. Perhaps the local county personnel has ties to the ranch it crossed and since it was likely obvious I wasn't local. While I'd like to hope that doesn't happen, unfortunately, I believe it does.

 

[Dakotakid]

It has been the other way, Mabee road had issues with extra access being designated but not actual.

 

[WanderWoman]

Didn’t know you could do that

The .pdfs on the FWP website are georeferenced so all you need to do is download and add to Avenza.