Killing Machines - Wolves

Wolf,

Your full of crap. Why do you think wolves kill coyotes, because they are hungry? No because coyotes are competion, same as your pet dog or a sheep dog. Your National Park Island comments have no bearing on what is happening in the west. Can the island wolves feed on cattle and sheep when the moose populations are low? Can they leave the island when there are slim pickings?

Paul
 
To think that wolves can co-exist with game animals without being controled is total BS. To think that wolves only prey on the young and the week is also BS. The wolf populaton up here has gotten to the point that the predator to prey ratio is way out of whack in a lot of areas in Alaska. If the wolves aren't controlled by humans the population of wolves will reduce only when there is nothing left for them to eat. I really feel for you guys in the west where wolves have been reintroduced.

I had a friend who was a outfitter in Cascade, ID. I was down there visiting him the year before the wolf introduction took place. He was pretty involved in fighting against it and had all kinds of paper work the feds published. The one thing that I remember while looking through the enviromental impact statement was the guy who was the head of the fedral fish and wildlife service in ID said in so many words that the introduction of wolves into ID would eventually put an end to sport hunting in the state.
 
Paul C,

How many dogs do you know that kill Elk or other big game?? Your dreaming!! Wolves kill each other to protect a hunting territory, but I thought we were talking about Wolf impact on herd animals. have you ever witnessed a wolf killing a coyote. I doubt it. How does a leashed or tied dog become competition for a wolf pack?? my national park comments merely endorse as one more example the research that has been done on wolf pack vs herd co-existence. Do you actually beleive Wolves would completely wipe out their food source?? If so why have they not #1 completley eliminated all other game in the world or #2 gone extinct themselves? Give me one example anywhere in the world where a wolf pack has completley eliminated another species!!??? With regards to the Island, Wolves and moose found their own way there and can find their own way off. There are no sheep or cattle to eat on the Island.
 
Alasken,

I do agree with you that I feel for ranchers because they have no recourse and unfortunatley they posses some of the easiest prey for wolves. I beleive they should be allowed to shoot wolves as should hunters and if you've read my posts I am a wolf hunter myself. I also agree that wolves prey on healthy animals but given the choice they will take the old sick and young because it poses less risk of injury. However, that is where our like thinking ends. Do you beleive that if humans do not kill wolves they will wipe out all other species. ( see post to Paul C) that is total bs. Give me one example anywhere in the world where this has happened. I can give you examples where the wolf has been exterminated completely by man. How do you explain the chronic wasting disease affecting Deer and Elk in the US. With overpopulation comes disease, starvation ect. It is a very fine balance and if studied over a period of time predator prey ratios definitley reflect that they work in unison. It may not appear that way each year but look at it over a longer period of time? Why are wolves flourishing in your area, because there is plentiful game, when the game reduces to a certain level(sounds like that time is close) so will the predators until the game resurges, it is called nature and to think we must play a role in making it work by killing off wolves just to kill them is placing way too much credit in our hands. Is it legal to hunt wolves in your area, if so, do you?
 
Wolf,

Your two watt bulb just doesn't get it. No one has said that game animals will be eliminated. Just that HUNTER opportunity will greatly reduced or eliminated in many areas out here. If the wolves find killing game tough at differnt times of the year, they change their focus to livestock. If their densities become too high they head for new country such as Utah. There are places that they can live out here and not get into trouble, other places they will be guarenteed to get in trouble. The wolf huggers would like them everywhere. You do not have a clue to the politics of these issues. What is happening in your little world has nothing to do with what is happening here.

Paul
 
Paul, I think Wolf has a pretty good persective on the issue and some interesting info and experience with wolves. I'm glad he's here.

I don't mind sharing some deer and elk with wolves anymore than I mind sharing deer and elk with mountain lions and bears. I've said all along I want wolves delisted and hunted so they're controlled at low levels. But I don't think we have any right to try to eliminate a native species from an area just because they compete with us as hunters. Besides, I can see where they'll probably be better for the overall health of the elk and deer herds than anything hunters can do.
 
thank you Ithaca. I do have a lifetime of experience hunting and living beside wolves in my "little world".

Paul C., you are obviously very emotional about this issue. Do you have the intellect to discuss a topic and debate the actual issues being discussed? Isn't that what we are doing here? Did you actually read what I said? I will repeat, I believe they should be controlled and hunted, that ranchers should have the right to protect their investment if wolves are threatening their livestock. Wolves once ranged all of North America. Humans exterminated them from many areas completely. Again I will ask you directly the question DO YOU HAVE ONE EXAMPLE WHERE WOLVES HAVE WIPED OUT A GAME POPULATION ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD AT ANY TIME IN THE HISTORY OF THEIR EXISTENCE. If you stop and think rationally for a moment do you believe you have the right to exterminate a species?? In your mind I may be a dim watted lightbulb, however, please stick to the issues. what you are proposing is eradication. I would question whether you are a regularly successful hunter given your fear of competition from another species and lack of concern for the environment we hunt in. If you are afraid to compete as a hunter would you rather we penned up a few animals each year so you could kill one?? That is not hunting. Hunting in my "little world" involves becoming in complete tune with the environment around you, all the animals that inhabit the forest area you are going to hunt and utilizing all of the factors from weather, terrain, animal habits and hunting skills to take the game you are pursuing. What about other hunters do you fear what they might do to game populations given the fact that we as hunters have wiped out game populations more than once throughout history. Want some examples??? All you have to do is ask. Before you fire off another emotionally charged post based on nothing, research what is being discussed and give me something to change my viewpoint other than emotions.
 
Wolf,

I see you fancy yourself as some kind of hunter. I find it interesting that you use a National Park as an example where wolves and prey can find balance. One preditor missing in this example.

Maybe you should reread MY posts. Where did I say that wolves should be exterminated? No where. For your info, hunting behind a fence is illeagal in Montana, unless you are Ted Turner and you have some extra Bison to kill. I am a very passionate hunter. Much of my time is spent in the mountains. Most of my hunting is done with backpack and I rarely see another hunter during the season. I can start hunting from my doorstep. National Forest is 1/2 a mile away. You can find in walking distance from my home at various times of the year elk, moose, whitetail, mule deer, turkeys, big horns, mountain goat, cougar, black bear, grizzly, bobcat, coyotes, fox, and wolves. Small game too numerous to mention. Yes, I am very lucky to live where I live.

Continued

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 21:23: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>
 
Wolf here are some questions for you. Do you think the wolf huggers will allow us to delist and start hunting wolves like you are currently able to do? Look closer to your little world, Minnesota for that answer.

How many wolves do we need to have here before we have enough? Do we need to let them live everywhere?

Do the wolf huggers have names for the wolves where you live? They do out here. You think you can hunt animals with names?

Do the wolves in your area focus on the new born? They do around here. How long would it take in your area to close hunting seasons with little to no recruitment. Five years? Ten years?

Answer these questions and I'll continue the debate.

P. S. Ask Ithaca what he thinks of snowmobiles.

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 21:43: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>
 
Ithaca,

Please explain to me how the Wyoming wolf management plan will exterminate all the wolves? How is it differnt then what you would like to see, strict control of the wolf populations?

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 19:22: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>
 
Paul,

I stand corrected, you did not directly say wolves should be eradicated from your area. However I am unclear as to your position on what should be done? The approach you were taking suggested you wanted no wolves present.

I do fancy myself as a hunter as I have been one for over thirty years and I too hunt right out my front doorstep, by canoe, and foot trails in the Canadian Sheild. I too consider myself very lucky.

My national park example was more directed at Ithaca after reading a post under sportsmans issues that mentioned the Island but did not name it. I know the Island well and therefore cleared up the name and location. The national park example is merely one other example. The fact that wolves have co-existed with herd animals moose,elk,deer,caribou since time began is example enough. I am serious, if you can find one example where a wolf population wiped out a herd animal population please bring it forward and my view point on wolf self management will change. I do not know of any such examples. Whether experienced in the bush or not do the math: If in every instance wolves have managed their numbers in conjunction with the herd over hundreds of years why would that be diferent in "your little word" By the way neither one of our world's sound very little, you have the mountains and I have hundreds of thousands of crown land that is uninhabited!!

I think there is a remote possibility of de-listing the wolf but not if hunters talk about eradication like some of the posts here suggest. If a conservation approach that incorporates live and let live, meaning we can hunt them but not wipe them out possibly delisting can be achieved. What needs to happen is the radicals on both sides of the issue need to be outvoiced by more compromising factions. May not be realistic though i realized that!
Minnesota is full of wolf huggers! Just to note it is also full of wolves and deer, they are coexisting without a problem and the hunting opportunties are still great.
continued....
 
continue to answer your questions:
I do not know what number of wolves is enough. I would suggest at least two, one male and one female and as indicated before they will manage themselves! To date we have not been overrun by wolves!
We do not have names for our wolves up here! Way too many to start naming. It also sounds like we do not have as many wolf huggers either. How many wolves do you have in your area if people are naming them??

Wolves do concentrate on new borns, old and sick moose and deer. 50% of moose calf mortality is attributed to male adult black bears and wolves. Our gov't strategy with regards to calves is that the mortality rate is high anyways so we can buy one tag a year instead of an adult moose tag (adult tags are through a lottery system. If you are not successful in the draw you automatically get a calf tag) It sounds crazy, I'm not sure i agree with this approach but it has been working for years. Our moose and deer populations are growing each year. I do not understand your question of how long it will take to close hunting seasons with little to no recruitment 5-10 years?? who are we recruiting? Please clarify.
 
Paul, "Please explain to me how the Wyoming wolf management plan will exterminate all the wolves? How is it differnt then what you would like to see, strict control of the wolf populations?"

That's been explained (maybe down in SI in the wolf topics there). You've been provided plenty of info and links on the WY plan. The WY plan is holding up the whole delisting process. Nothing else is.

I don't know of named wolfs in ID. Even 300 names would be way to many to keep track of. I suppose people might have named a few distinctive ones. So what!?

Wolf is giving us lots of unemotional facts. You don't seem to have anything to substantiate any of your emotional speculation.
 
Wolf,

Recrutement, as in new animals surviving their first year, thus replacing the older animals that die from, disease, old age, preditors, weather factors, ect. I talked to a friend today who was hunting around Gardiner, MT towards the end of season. This area is just north of Yellowstone and is being run over by wolves. He saw a group of 120 cow elk. In this group he only counted 1 calf. How much longer do you think we will be able to hunt elk around Gardiner with this kind of recrutement?

This reintroduction has turned into a fire storm, and all we can do is sit and watch it burn. You will be hearing a lot more about this in the months to come, when hard data becomes available to prove what is truely happening. Watch out for Ithaca, he is a sneaky weasel. He'll be out after your right to snowmobile next!

Paul
 
I'm not very concerned about snowmobiles as long as they're not bothering wildlife. I do think they should be limited in Yellowstone Park, where it is so crowded with them they cause a lot of air pollution.

Paul, So you've got an anecdote about someone who claims he only saw one calf elk with 120 cows. Do you have any figures on calf elk survival in Yellowstone, where they probably have dozens of biologists monitoring the situation?

Here's a report from Jackson, WY:

"Wolves may have the best luck before elk become accustomed to living with the predators. Now is a critical time to record the impact of wolves because "the prey population is the most naive," he said.

His research shows a 7 percent decline in elk calf survival from the first study period to the second. Grizzlies increased calf mortality by 3 percent, and mountain lions also played a role."

http://yellowstone.visitoradventures.com/_wolves.shtml

Here's more:

"The sex ratio of elk in the northern herd is about equal. This means about 5000 cow elk Approximately 65 calves per 100 cows are born a year (this is lower than most elk herds in the general area). Figure 3200-3300 new elk calves a year. To maintain a stable population, requires a one year elk calf survival rate of 25 calves per 100 cows. Elk calves are preyed on by not just by wolves, but coyotes, cougar, and for about a 2 week period, by bears, especially grizzly. The winter census just completed showed a calf to cow ratio of 34 calves to 100 cows. So, I would conclude that for 1998-9 there was net recruitment into the herd. The National Park Service news release on the census stated "estimates of calf ratios have varied from 17 to 48 calves per 100 females since the mid-1970s and since 1995 have varied from 23 to 34 calves per 100 female elk."

http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/wolffoodstory.htm

"Wolves' impact on park elk no cause for concern, official says"

http://www.billingsgazette.com/region/991221_reg11.html

More:
http://www.scenicprints.com/articles/article3.htm

More:
" There has been some significant variation in the kinds of elk killed during different times of year (e.g., bulls are generally killed in March after being weakened by the rut and then winter, except in December 2000 when a lot of bulls were killed). Reproducing female elk are more important than calves to population growth, and wolf-killed cow elk avg 14 years, vs. hunter-killed elk avg 6 years. Wolves clearly select the more vulnerable individuals among the elk population. Elk numbers increased in 2000, despite the presence of wolves. Elk cow/calf ratios also appear to be up."

http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/conf-notes.html

********************************************

So, Except for a few real emotional predictions by ranchers, most of the info I'm finding indicates that , so far, wolves have been good for the overall health of the elk herds around Yellowstone.

There seems to be no doubt that elk numbers there and around Jackson have been too high lately, due mostly to Winter feeding programs.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-04-2003 20:40: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
 
Ithaca,

My friend has a wildlife biology degree and is an eye doctor. Not only does he know what he is counting, he can also see what he is counting!

Do you trust data coming from the Park biologists? I don't. But that will not be an issue for long. Patience, FWP will be doing winter elk counts soon and then we'll know for sure.

Did you here about the Big Horn Sheep near Gardiner that died from "lightning strike". Any guesses on what really killed them and why the Park Service would try to cover it up? You want to believe the Park biologist, it's your choice, and your bad judgement. Why don't you go to Yellowstone and see for yourself?

Paul
 
Well I have a friend with a wildlife biology degree who is a dentist and he says elk calf survival was up this year where he elk hunted. He has 20/20 eyesight and good binoculars. He thinks the elk are learning how to deal with the wolves.

I think there are enough biologists in Yellowstone watching each other so that a conspiracy to cover up the wolf facts is unlikely. But we're always gonna have conspiracy theorists. I, myself, believe Elvis is still alive.
biggrin.gif
 
I don't live around wolves but have been studying them all my life. most of my knoledge is from books and shows but i belive that the wolf was here for thousands of years and the biggest decline of animals was human related. I think its great the wolf is finaly getting some of his home range back
 
Ithaca,

Does your friend hunt around Gardiner? One more time Ithaca, Go to North Yellowstone and see for yourself what is really happening there. Using Ralph Maughan as your information source only makes you look foolish, and makes one question your true motives.

Where I live in NW Montana, the wolves are not much of an issue. Not great wolf habitat, and not much for livestock. The few wolves that can make a living year round here, probably do the herds more good than bad. This is not the case around Yellowstone.

I very involved in a state wildlife organization, and am up on what is going on in the state, and the west for that matter. Just because the wolf is not affecting my hunting personally in my little world, I am still concerned about what is happening to hunting in other parts of the West.

Paul
 
Paul, I'm using all the information sources I can find on the Internet and I'm posting some links here so everyone can read up.

Why don't you give us some links to articles that support what you're telling us?

Which wildlife organization are you active in?

You keep telling me to go to Yellowstone and take a look for myself, but I'd rather read reports on what the biologists are finding out with their radio collar studies, etc. That would be more scientific than anything I could find out in a few days of driving around the park and asking questions.

So where are the reports on whatever is happening around Gardner and why is that significant?

I liked the info on average ages of cow elk killed by wolves. If the wolves are getting lots of the cows that are too old to have calves that should be great for the herds.
 
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