I've about had enough

[gutshootem]

Randy, I get your frustration and needing to vent; however, I believe this thread is going to exasperate the problem. As noted by many who posted here, this isn't something most people were aware of. I see FOIA requests for not just you, but others in the industry skyrocketing as word spreads.

 

[hank4elk]

Another asshole that gives humans a bad name....spread the wealth D-head.
Well put Buzz.
I feel for ya Randy. Hope ya keep me on your call list, when you need anything.

 

[slatebuilder]

Thank you for sharing your adventures. I have enjoyed them since the very first episode. Remember hunting is fun.

With the ease of access to information and those working to make information more accessible will it get any better? Seems like it is just a matter of what to ask, who to ask it of, or where to look.

Each year hunting research services and mapping services offer more and more information. What will they have next year, in 2 years, how about 5 years? Perhaps as a “premium platinum service” the research services could file the FOIA requests for premium platinum members.

 

[midwesterncrosshair]

"A HUNT BASED ONLY ON TROPHIES TAKEN FALLS SHORT OF WHAT THE ULTIMATE GOAL SHOULD BE," -Fred Bear

I would assume the Ying Yang falls far from the category of a hunter.

Sorry for the headache Randy and Buzz. Hope this doesn't hinder what you guys do.

 

[Big Fin]

Randy, I get your frustration and needing to vent; however, I believe this thread is going to exasperate the problem. As noted by many who posted here, this isn't something most people were aware of. I see FOIA requests for not just you, but others in the industry skyrocketing as word spreads.

You could be right. I thought about that possibility. For me, given how this stuff has ramped up in the last two years, both in volume and scope of years that people are requesting information on, there is probably not a hunt we've been on in the last five years that hasn't been subject to a FOIA or state information law request.

Quite honestly, I could care less if people know where we hunt. We meet so many people out in the field who recognize our rig or our crew that not much is ever "secret." What does bother me is the film permit applications and how it is being leveraged in a way that does not happen to film permit applicants outside of the hunting space.

What set it off yesterday was a film permit application where someone wanted confidential information that was not necessary and not required by law or Federal Regulation. Even after a series of email exchanges that showed the requested information is not necessary/required and my pleading to the person and their supervisor of how FOIA requests are resulting in my confidential information ending up in the public domain, I still don't have any assurance that we will get a film permit. In this instance, I will just cross that hunt off our list before I will give something as invasive and onerous as is being requested as part of that film permit application.

After that email exchange and reading the other emails cataloged in that folder of recent inquiries and accusations, I decided to make this post. You are right that it might increase the number of people asking for my, or yours, hunting applications and draw results. If it does ramp up, I suspect a serious backlash to state agencies when private citizens start becoming the target for hunters too lazy to do their own research.

It is troublesome that hunting tag applications, not just mine, but anyone who applies for tags, is subject to having their information provided to any person who asks for it. Maybe I have to accept that our society is changing in a strange way and we as hunters being a cross section of that society will change our collective behavior in a similar manner.

I fully support FOIA laws and similar state based laws. But, it seems those open information laws are being used/abused/pushed far beyond what they were intended for. Most all of them were intended for "Open and Transparent Government;" passed to support the important efforts keep elected officials honest and keep government from operating in back rooms. I doubt those rules were intended for private citizens to have their tag applications (or insert any other interaction citizens have with their governments) shared with the entire world.

I accept this kind of stuff comes with the territory I operate in. That said, when I think it is unreasonable and getting out of hand, I feel it is helpful to use our platforms to push back.

 

[elkduds]

"You are right that it might increase the number of people asking for my, or yours, hunting applications and draw results. If it does ramp up, I suspect a serious backlash to state agencies when private citizens start becoming the target for hunters too lazy to do their own research."

Or antis, or identity thieves, or data dealers, or political opponents...

"I fully support FOIA laws and similar state based laws. But, it seems those open information laws are being used/abused/pushed far beyond what they were intended for. Most all of them were intended for "Open and Transparent Government;" passed to support the important efforts keep elected officials honest and keep government from operating in back rooms."

Government entities and officials seem to get around many aspects of this "transparency" to a far greater degree than private citizens. I hope hunting advocacy organizations and individual hunters will recognize the risks, not just to our hunting tradition and public lands heritage, but more importantly to individual privacy and personal security.

I hope HTers and others recognize Big Fin posted this to warn us, not just to vent about an administrative headache for media. I appreciate the discussion. This is alarming, and I was unaware of it.

 

[justdada]

This whole thread makes me want to puke... as bad as the wanna be slackers who are using the FOIA to stalk randy, I see a much bigger issue from those who would use this as a way to harrass in order to silence those who stand up for public land hunting.
It's a frightful thought when a few closeted internet bigots could threaten a pro public use platform like this. Shamful pricks.
Randy 2020.... or Kim 2020, if randy declines.

 

[Scarey]

If nothing else, I've probably scared off every Hunt Talker from ever again wanting to apply with us for a filmed hunt.

I speak for myself on this, although many may agree. It does not matter if it was a filmed hunt, a non filmed hunt, a day of glassing or sharing a few laughs over a blizzard. I would be excited to just get a moment to shake your hand some day. It is never easy making the hobbies you enjoy more than just a hobby. Enjoy your downtime, decompress and understand that we are all behind you.

 

[270elk]

My action tomorrow is to go to the local (regional HQ for the Colorado Game and Fish) and ask if my personal information is protected? What are the rules for a FOIA requests? Why does the Game and Fish need some of the personal information for a hunting or fishing licenses? Next stop will be my local BLM office where numerous You Tube videos of mountain biking trips are posted, river rafting adventures and commercials are made and posted. Are these individuals required to obtain a permit and provide personal information on their respective permits.
I do not believe that the FOIA request that Randy has encountered are only
to find out where he is hunting. These personal information hacks are to harass and push their agenda of anti hunting. I still believe that we must push the various state Game and Fish to act and protect our information. I will be crafting a letter to the head of Wyoming and Colorado Game and Fish about this issue.

 

[jlong17]

Wow... just wow. I am a newbie to the hunting arena. I forget how I stumbled upon your content Randy, but I am forever grateful that I did. I believe I am your "target audience". I'm a millennial (next generation) that was never exposed to hunting growing up, and I want to figure this stuff out without someone providing me with their honey hole. I quickly learned that elk hunting has a very steep learning curve, and requires a ton of dedication and research. I just couldn't imagine taking short cuts or being malicious towards someone like yourself. I hope to harvest my first elk this fall, and I also hope you continue to educate folks like me. Thanks for what you do... more people appreciate it than you know!!

 

[Paul in Idaho]

That is terrible on many levels. It makes me appreciate even more how much you do for conservation, wild places and our hunting heritage.

I'd be surprised if prosecutors would not see the use of someone else's personal information to access a government computer system as criminal. I don't know enough details to give advice, but I have heard you talk enough about legal research on conservation laws to guess you know people who are qualified.

It sounds like the FOIA law is in need of refining as much as EAJA. Best wishes in resolving this problem others have created for you.

 

[beginnerhunter]

You really don't need to apologise for not divulging your units, etc. That's your right. Although I think you are correct in that more folks would be angry if you did give out that information. But it's really petty for people to get bent out of shape over that and you shouldn't lose any sleep either way.

 

[TheJason]

Agencies began taking social security numbers years ago as a means of tracking people who were delinquent on child support, and provide for more uniform enforcement.

That information should never be released. If a fish and game agency releases personal information without redacting it, the fault is theirs. If the person receiving it then uses it, they are also at fault.

 

[Nunyacreek]

Well I’ll reiterate what many before me have said, even if you stop filming right now I think you’ve done a great job talking about public lands, public hunting, and conservation. You too, Buzz, I appreciate your insights whether I always agree or not. Thank you for persevering and let’s hope this doesn’t escalate.

 

[wyoelkfan15]

Don't matter how much mustard you put on it, a turd sandwich is still a turd sandwich and these guys are the blue plate special of internet heroes! Keep up the good fight Big Fin! You are a positive influence in this world.

 

[BigPumaAg]

This whole thread makes me want to puke... as bad as the wanna be slackers who are using the FOIA to stalk randy, I see a much bigger issue from those who would use this as a way to harrass in order to silence those who stand up for public land hunting.
It's a frightful thought when a few closeted internet bigots could threaten a pro public use platform like this. Shamful pricks.
Randy 2020.... or Kim 2020, if randy declines.

I have actually witnessed the weaponization of FOIA requests for my local school board. There are a group of individuals (one running for school board now) that didn't like how the superintendent handled a situation and cried wolf big time. Anyway the superintendent resigned when his daughter started to receive death threats. Since then this group has moved on to other targets (other school board members, employees, and even other members of the public that stand up to them) using a plethora of FOIA requests along the way in what is amounting to a witch hunt that is nothing but a time suck.

Soooooo there is a fine line and while I completely agree with Randy for the necessity of the FOIA, at the same time it hurts seeing how something intended for good can be warped into utter nonsense.
As for the personal data, I would almost think that a large majority of that should have been redacted. At a certain point states should care more about protecting citizen's data.

 

[88man]

I have been saying this the past few years when someone has the time and money and they are motivated by jealousy and bitterness they can certainly cause major problems in a good persons life. I have friends who have lost jobs over propaganda campaigns of individuals who they had disagreements with in the workplace. Crazy! Sometimes its best to let the sleeping bear lie

 

[antelopedundee]

Above is from a different, but similar, BS inquiry last month, advanced by a group of guys I had never met or talked to, supposedly representing a non-profit organization. That quote is taken verbatim from an email they sent to me that made some pretty serious accusations, all of which turned out to be horse shit. With nothing to hide or worry about, I asked them for a phone call to find out what the hell this was all about. Not that I need their "seal of approval to hunt Wyoming with my Uncle and other close friends." ...... but they said they would stop whatever it was they were pursuing.

Not sure what WY G&F gave them, or under what state statute Wyoming agencies are required to provide such information to anyone who asks, but these guys had all of my draw results since 2008. I was not notified by WY that such request was made of my information. Advance notice is given under FOIA requests, but evidently not under WY statute.

Not sure what personal information was included in that information dump, either. Hopefully none.

Point being, if you want to keep any secrets, don't apply with me ....... And, if you want to know where I hunt in Wyoming, evidently WY G&F is required to give it to you if you ask.

License draw success information is public information in Wyoming. Has been for a long time. WGFD used to put computer printed lists out in the Cheyenne office so anyone could look through them. I remember getting advertising from game processors after I drew tags. I expect that info prior to the current year would be available for inquiry.
I recall in the past looking through the list for an acquaintance's info and it gave a name and address. Don't recall if there was a phone number tho.

Here is a link/email addy for requests. [email protected]

Knowing that Hank Hunter drew a lope tag for area 29 doesn't tell you where in 29 he is hunting.

As for requesting your film permit app info if twas me doing it, it would be to help me in my own app and not to harass you as the inquirer to which you refer in your OP may have done.

 

[antelopedundee]

In years past you could just walk in top the G&F office in Cheyenne and look at the list of licenses and who drew them. Now you have to pay I believe but the information is public knowledge. I know I have looked at the license list in the past.
JM77 do you know if this is still true?

According to my contact at WGF&D it's still true.

 

[Big Fin]

As for requesting your film permit app info if twas me doing it, it would be to help me in my own app and not to harass you as the inquirer to which you refer in your OP may have done.

Agreed. That is the purpose for which I think most people have made the inquiries.

Receiving emails from some that are heavy with hearsay accusations or say things like "You'll regret blowing me off" or like the one posted with a smirk about my UT application history, seem to be outside the normal reasons people are doing it and are the reasons I brought up this thread. There have been many FOIA and state information requests about us, my MT FWP information seemed to be community information for a few years, and so long as it was not used the way some of the recent events have followed, I just lived with it.

Again, it comes with the territory I operate in. I accept that. Not the end of the world. Just part of the path to learn from.