Caribou Gear Tarp

Interesting......

Switched this past year. I've followed the discussions here... it's pretty simple - scale between lead and copper. Performance, environment/health, cost.

Interesting story. Eagles, gut piles, and higher levels of lead poisoning vs remote areas. The "fight" between the two doesn't exist for my time hunting.
 
I can't read it without doing a survey. Nope to that. I do know that lead bullet fragments were taking out condors in Grand Canyon. That was a fact. Sportsmen in the area got on board with banning lead bullets around the park. But most of the hunters in those areas were highly dependent on tourism and could see the sense in it ... there. The recovering condors draw a lot of tourist bird watchers.

Back in the seventies I found a pair of mallards on a small ditch that were dying of lead poisoning. Very unusual, and alarming, to find two together on the edge of a rural western Montana slough in the latter stages of lead poisoning. A very sad thing to witness. No animal should have to die that way. Neither bird could walk or even hold its head up erect. I took them alive to regional F&G office in Kalispell and autopsies confirmed lead poisoning. Waterfowl were/are more susceptible than raptors because they have a gizzard to store lead pellets as grinding gravel whereas raptors, like mammal predators, should pass it through (or rather back out) of their system relatively quickly. I would think that golden eagle must have consumed quite a bit over an extended time period which I would think unusual. Or maybe the local land fill isn't being properly maintained in hunting season and it was hanging out there?
 
Article says no ban wanted. This is where it starts. Doesn't matter to me, but I see it coming. mtmuley
 
LuketheDog said:
"A necropsy found that it had an elevated level of lead in its bloodstream as well as some rat poison."

Although the title should read: "Recovered Golden Eagle Dies from Ingesting Rat Poison Intended for Squirrels"
Click to expand...
I wonder how much chemical lead content is in rat poison? Hmmm.

Edit: Doing a quick bit of research I see no lead chemical content in any of the many different rodenticides. "Elevated level of lead" is not the same as "toxic level of lead." Many people don't realize that lead occurs naturally in the environment and some level of it in an animal's system would be expected. "Elevated" is meaningless. I can't read the article but it certainly sounds like the evidence for cause of death was inconclusive.
 
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OntarioHunter said:
I can't read it without doing a survey. Nope to that. I do know that lead bullet fragments were taking out condors in Grand Canyon. That was a fact. Sportsmen in the area got on board with banning lead bullets around the park. But most of the hunters in those areas were highly dependent on tourism and could see the sense in it ... there. The recovering condors draw a lot of tourist bird watchers.

Back in the seventies I found a pair of mallards on a small ditch that were dying of lead poisoning. Very unusual, and alarming, to find two together on the edge of a rural western Montana slough in the latter stages of lead poisoning. A very sad thing to witness. No animal should have to die that way. Neither bird could walk or even hold its head up erect. I took them alive to regional F&G office in Kalispell and autopsies confirmed lead poisoning. Waterfowl were/are more susceptible than raptors because they have a gizzard to store lead pellets as grinding gravel whereas raptors, like mammal predators, should pass it through (or rather back out) of their system relatively quickly. I would think that golden eagle must have consumed quite a bit over an extended time period which I would think unusual. Or maybe the local land fill isn't being properly maintained in hunting season and it was hanging out there?
Click to expand...
The effect to raptors usually comes from eating lots of smaller animals that have also eaten lead and have concentrations in their body, like ground squirrels they mentioned, interesting that they're correlating it to direct consumption of gut piles.
 
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kwyeewyk said:
The effect to raptors usually comes from eating lots of smaller animals that have also eaten lead and have concentrations in their body, like ground squirrels they mentioned, interesting that they're correlating it to direct consumption of gut piles.
Click to expand...
Well, it doesn't make much sense that a lot of smaller animals would have high concentrations of lead. From what source? As I'm sure you know, golden eagles do not prey extensively on small animals. They are not outfitted with talons geared for it. We're talking about a bird that regularly kills grown deer! They might prey on coyotes and foxes with lead in them. But how did those animals pick it up if not from gut piles and carrion? And, as I said, mammals should be able to pass the lead through their systems fairly quickly without too much ill effect (this would of course be conditional on the size of the animal and the amount of lead it ingests). I think it is logical to assume a golden eagle obtained an elevated level of lead by consuming bullet fragments either directly or indirectly. But how elevated? You and I can function with mildly "elevated" levels of lead in our system, certainly over short periods. It is a "poison" but only in toxic levels for extended periods. Depending on the rodenticide (d-Con for example is seldom toxic when consumed second hand from dead animals), I think there would be a greater potential for the rat poison in the eagle's system to have contributed to its death.
 
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kwyeewyk said:
The effect to raptors usually comes from eating lots of smaller animals that have also eaten lead and have concentrations in their body, like ground squirrels they mentioned, interesting that they're correlating it to direct consumption of gut piles.
Click to expand...
Gophers commonly scavenged on the carcasses of their brethren that I shot as a kid. Bloody cannibals! However, I'm having trouble picturing one making a serious dent in a deer's gut pile.
 
OntarioHunter said:
Well, it doesn't make much sense that a lot of smaller animals would have high concentrations of lead. From what source? As I'm sure you know, golden eagles do not prey extensively on small animals. They are not outfitted with talons geared for it. We're talking about a bird that regularly kills grown deer! They might prey on coyotes and foxes with lead in them. But how did those animals pick it up if not from gut piles and carrion? And, as I said, mammals should be able to pass the lead through their systems fairly quickly without too much ill effect (this would of course be conditional on the size of the animal and the amount of lead it ingests). I think it is logical to assume a golden eagle obtained an elevated level of lead by consuming bullet fragments either directly or indirectly. But how elevated? You and I can function with mildly "elevated" levels of lead in our system, certainly over short periods. It is a "poison" but only in toxic levels for extended periods. Depending on the rodenticide, I think there would be a greater potential for the rat poison in the eagle's system to have lead to its death.
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I think you might be underestimating the amount of small prey golden eagles eat, the talons are for grabbing, the beak does the tearing--rabbits/hares (jackrabbits) are a large part of their diet, but I wouldn't expect them to typically be consuming a lot of lead. I would assume most of the prey with concentrated lead would be birds with crops as you mentioned earlier, waterfowl is also a favorite of eagles. Foxes and coyotes would also be an intermediary source, possibly also eating birds with concentrated levels, getting their own buildup. And small mammals like ground squirrels shot and left are probably readily scavenged by both eagles and prey foxes/coyotes.

Guess I need to read the source literature...
 
kwyeewyk said:
The effect to raptors usually comes from eating lots of smaller animals that have also eaten lead and have concentrations in their body, like ground squirrels they mentioned, interesting that they're correlating it to direct consumption of gut piles.
Click to expand...

Didn't the study on the Kaibab show scavenger blood-levels increase in correlation with big game seasons opening? It's been quite a while since I read that paper, but I think I recall they had season fluctuation that peaked after rifle opener.
 
California already has a ban on all lead ammo for hunting, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility before other states follow
 
OntarioHunter said:
Gophers commonly scavenged on the carcasses of their brethren that I shot as a kid. Bloody cannibals!
Click to expand...

kwyeewyk said:
I think you might be underestimating the amount of small prey golden eagles eat, the talons are for grabbing, the beak does the tearing--rabbits/hares (jackrabbits) are a large part of their diet, but I wouldn't expect them to typically be consuming a lot of lead. I would assume most of the prey with concentrated lead would be birds with crops as you mentioned earlier, waterfowl is also a favorite of eagles. Foxes and coyotes would also be an intermediary source, possibly also eating birds with concentrated levels, getting their own buildup. And small mammals like ground squirrels shot and left are probably readily scavenged by both eagles and prey foxes/coyotes.

Guess I need to read the source literature...
Click to expand...
Well, I think you're onto something re gophers shot and left in the field being a significant potential source of lead poisoning. It behooves all of us to ensure we make even a small effort to dispose of the bodies (i.e. stuff them back down the holes). Varmint bullets are typically VERY fragmentary and therefore a high potential for consumption by scavengers. I recall shooting 1500 gophers one day as a kid and years later over 500 jackrabbits one winter afternoon in Salmon River country back in the early eighties. Eagles were floating around everywhere that day. That's a lot of .22 lead just left laying in the snow!

You've really missed the boat re waterfowl being a source. It is the law now everywhere in US and Canada that waterfowl must be hunted with nontoxic shot. They can neither eat it or carry it around wounded. I expect soon non toxic shot will be required for upland hunting. Should be. It would be already if the feds had anything to say (non toxic shot has been required for upland hunting on federal refuges for years). Feds can control off refuge migratory game regs and that's why lead shot has been banned for waterfowl since early 90s.
 
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FI460 said:
Didn't the study on the Kaibab show scavenger blood-levels increase in correlation with big game seasons opening? It's been quite a while since I read that paper, but I think I recall they had season fluctuation that peaked after rifle opener.
Click to expand...
I'll have to read that one too, sounds like an interesting research project would be to actually link it to direct consumption of lead from carcasses instead of just correlating. I wonder how many carcasses an average eagle visits in a season?

OntarioHunter said:
You've really missed the boat re waterfowl being a source. It is the law now everywhere in US and Canada that waterfowl must be hunted with nontoxic shot. They can neither eat it or carry it around wounded.
Click to expand...
True, but I assume there is still plenty around in the environment from before it was banned to provide a low level source that could be concentrated through the trophic levels, maybe I'm wrong though.
 
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