IMR 4350 to H4350 in 30-06

[morgaj1]

I have a Tikka 30-06 that is the most accurate rifle I own. It is not picky at all and I have loaded 150-180gr bullets with several powders with success. My favorite load is 165 AccuBond over 56gr IMR4350. I use this for everything from whitetail to hogs to rams and would use it on elk if I can ever draw a tag. Now that I have a chronograph, I have noticed temperature sensitivity with IMR 4350. Problem is, I live in AL and do our load development and practicing during the off season where temperatures are frequently in the 90's. Our hunting season temperatures vary from the 50's down to the teens. I bought some H4350 in hopes of more temperature stability. I will obviously start low and work my way up. What has been your experience in the following:

1. Accuracy when switching between IMR 4350 and H4350?
2. Corresponding loads in IMR 4350 vs H4350? Consulting my reloading manuals, it appears that there is typically 0.5gr increase for H4350 over the same velocity for IMR 4350. For example, it appears that 46gr IMR 4350 with 165gr bullet would be roughly equivalent to 46.5gr H4350 for the same velocity.
3. Thoughts on temperature sensitivity for IMR 4350 vs H4350?

 

[MThuntr]

1) It depends. I doubt you'll notice anything spectacular
2) don't use that as gospel. Develop the load from start til you get the results you are looking for. The numbers you see are a general guide and I would ignore anything that looks like a correlation. 56grains looks to be near a starting charge according to Hodgdon. You have a lot of room to work up.
3) H4350 is the gold standard for temp stable powders. All powders will express different velocities at different temps that's how combustion works some are better than others. Best case is to develop a load as close to the temps you plan on needing them. Variations in velocity are also associated with reloading consistencies like neck tension, bullet seating depth, lot to lot variation in primers and powder, errors in the chronograph (particularly the inexpensive ones that use light sensors)

 

[morgaj1]

1) It depends. I doubt you'll notice anything spectacular
2) don't use that as gospel. Develop the load from start til you get the results you are looking for. The numbers you see are a general guide and I would ignore anything that looks like a correlation. 56grains looks to be near a starting charge according to Hodgdon. You have a lot of room to work up.
3) H4350 is the gold standard for temp stable powders. All powders will express different velocities at different temps that's how combustion works some are better than others. Best case is to develop a load as close to the temps you plan on needing them. Variations in velocity are also associated with reloading consistencies like neck tension, bullet seating depth, lot to lot variation in primers and powder, errors in the chronograph (particularly the inexpensive ones that use light sensors)

Thank you sir. I started with a Pro Cronograph, but got frustrated with light issues and upgraded to a Labradar. I'm confident in the numbers generated. I agree that, in a perfect world, I would develop loads at the temp for hunting. Problem is, the only place I have to shoot between 100-250 yards is at our hunting club. We shut down shooting in this area in by October 1 when temperatures are in the mid-70's to low 80's.

 

[N2TRKYS]

If you’re in a wide node, you probably won’t notice any difference. I like to develop mine in February or when it’s cold. Have you checked yours to see how much difference there is?

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Just learn to shoot.

 

[44hunter45]

Welcome. To HuntTalk.

1) It depends. I doubt you'll notice anything spectacular
2) don't use that as gospel. Develop the load from start til you get the results you are looking for. The numbers you see are a general guide and I would ignore anything that looks like a correlation. 56grains looks to be near a starting charge according to Hodgdon. You have a lot of room to work up.
3) H4350 is the gold standard for temp stable powders. All powders will express different velocities at different temps that's how combustion works some are better than others. Best case is to develop a load as close to the temps you plan on needing them. Variations in velocity are also associated with reloading consistencies like neck tension, bullet seating depth, lot to lot variation in primers and powder, errors in the chronograph (particularly the inexpensive ones that use light sensors)

+1

Conversion formulas such as the OP suggests may be OK for starting loads, but nothing else.

I lived in California when I started handloading. I built my first 30-06 loads with IMR4831 to get ready for an Idaho elk hunt. I did not have a chrony in those days. I worked up loads in the California summer heat.
I didn't know 4831 from 4064. My BIL said to use IMR4831, so I did.

I asked an old timer if I needed to worry about POI changes due to the lower temperature in Idaho in October. He taught me to put my finished ammo in the refrigerator. I transported it to the range in an ice chest and pulled each round out before single loading it into the rifle. That's how I zeroed my rifle to get ready for that hunt. A zero check upon arriving in Idaho put me right on.

If you have a refrigerator and an ice chest, you can know exactly what your load will do at any temperature you want.

 

[Aussie_hunter_JD]

H4350 is just rebranded Australia ADI 2209. ADI is owned by Australian Munitions which is designed for our military. The big selling point on ADI powder is that it's stable under all weather.

On that note it's frustrating that Hodgdon powder is just our powder with the hodgdon sticker slapped on it but hodgdon won't ship their other powders they make to Aus anymore, go figure.

 

[ImBillT]

H4350 is just rebranded Australia ADI 2209. ADI is owned by Australian Munitions which is designed for our military. The big selling point on ADI powder is that it's stable under all weather.

On that note it's frustrating that Hodgdon powder is just our powder with the hodgdon sticker slapped on it but hodgdon won't ship their other powders they make to Aus anymore, go figure.

There are a lot of powders that seem at first glance to be the same as another powder. I’m not saying that you can’t interchange ADI 2209 and H4350, but there is a fair chance that you cannot quite do it. Powder manufacturers cannot(unless something has changed recently) actually produce a powder with extremely precise energy density and burn rate. There is some variation from batch to batch, and that variation is usually quite significant. In fact, it’s significant to the point that reloaders could not reload safely. What us reloaders use is referred to as “canister grade” That means that the energy density and burn rate happened to fall within a narrow window that is specified by some canister grade powder. Ammunition manufacturers on the other hand, have pressure test barrels, so they can simply purchase a powder and adjust their load to be safe. It is possible that the “parent powder” for lack of a better term, for ADI 2209 and H4350 are the same, but that what they sell the military, and Hodgdon, label as ADI 2209, and sell to ammunition manufacturers have four slightly different energy density/burn rate specifications. What goes where is primarily a function of how the batch actually tests after they manufacture it.

There are many Reloader and Norma powders that are “the same powder” and load data is quite close, but the difference between RL-15 and N203b is larger than the difference between different lots of RL-15.

 

[ImBillT]

To the OP, I don’t remember which Hodgdon powders were originally rebranded IMR. 4530 could have been one. I’m pretty sure 4831 was. Whatever the case, Hodgdon has changed manufacturers, country or origin, etc. many times without changing the name of a powder, but DuPont IMR was always the same stuff you expected...Now Hodgdon owns the IMR trademark. Some of their powders with the same number have been consolidated, others have not. Hodgdon has begun making their load data match for the consolidated powders.(W760, W780 and H380, H414 comes to mind) Whatever the case, the difference won’t be huge. You should never even change lot numbers, let alone powders, with maximum loads. Always drop off and work up while looking for pressure signs if you were anywhere near max.

 

[Aussie_hunter_JD]

There are a lot of powders that seem at first glance to be the same as another powder. I’m not saying that you can’t interchange ADI 2209 and H4350, but there is a fair chance that you cannot quite do it. Powder manufacturers cannot(unless something has changed recently) actually produce a powder with extremely precise energy density and burn rate. There is some variation from batch to batch, and that variation is usually quite significant. In fact, it’s significant to the point that reloaders could not reload safely. What us reloaders use is referred to as “canister grade” That means that the energy density and burn rate happened to fall within a narrow window that is specified by some canister grade powder. Ammunition manufacturers on the other hand, have pressure test barrels, so they can simply purchase a powder and adjust their load to be safe. It is possible that the “parent powder” for lack of a better term, for ADI 2209 and H4350 are the same, but that what they sell the military, and Hodgdon, label as ADI 2209, and sell to ammunition manufacturers have four slightly different energy density/burn rate specifications. What goes where is primarily a function of how the batch actually tests after they manufacture it.

There are many Reloader and Norma powders that are “the same powder” and load data is quite close, but the difference between RL-15 and N203b is larger than the difference between different lots of RL-15.

I am not one to make a stand on something I don't know so I won't go into the detail of what you have said other than by saying you obviously know more than I pn that topic.
My experience has been from talking with ADI, what Aust munitions send to Hodgdon is the same as what they brand locally as 2209. So they say where you see USA loading manuals mentioning h4350 just to match that with 2209. Maybe that's not completely safe, I'm not sure but I'm yet to have an issue. I also am not one of those handloaders that needs to get every fps out of a case either so I'm never living on the edge.

 

[ImBillT]

I am not one to make a stand on something I don't know so I won't go into the detail of what you have said other than by saying you obviously know more than I pn that topic.
My experience has been from talking with ADI, what Aust munitions send to Hodgdon is the same as what they brand locally as 2209. So they say where you see USA loading manuals mentioning h4350 just to match that with 2209. Maybe that's not completely safe, I'm not sure but I'm yet to have an issue. I also am not one of those handloaders that needs to get every fps out of a case either so I'm never living on the edge.

I don’t know specifically for ADI 2209 vs H4350. I do know that what the actual manufacturer considers a single powder gets split into multiple powders that are very close to each other, but not close enough for a reloader to use interchangeably, depending on how each batch actually tests when they finish making it.

 

[morgaj1]

Just learn to shoot.

How exactly does. a discussion of temperature stability and powder swapping lead you to the conclusion that I can't shoot?

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Poor artists blame their implements.

 

[morgaj1]

Poor artists blame their implements.

What exactly did I blame? You know nothing about me or my abilities, yet make the huge leap that because I am looking for consistency that I can't shoot and I am blaming my equipment. Take your insulting ignorant viewpoint to another thread.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

What exactly did I blame? You know nothing about me or my abilities, yet make the huge leap that because I am looking for consistency that I can't shoot and I am blaming my equipment. Take your insulting ignorant viewpoint to another thread.

I take it back you're an expert marksman. Tell me where to FedEx your feelings.

 

[JLS]

I take it back you're an expert marksman. Tell me where to FedEx your feelings.

Is there any reason to act like this?

 

[ImBillT]

Poor artists blame their implements.

Completely unrelated.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Is there any reason to act like this?

Used to be a site about hunting???

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Completely unrelated.

Correct! That perfect ammo will get it done!!

 

[JLS]

Used to be a site about hunting???

I fail to see the point you’re trying to make. He asked a question about powders in the Ammunition and Reloading section.