cjcj
New member
elkgunner you missed the point again! if the people in idaho have spoken and are tired of the ATV noise then what does the gun have to do with it? this makes no sense that these two in combination are a problem.
Idaho ATV ban
- Thread starter HUNT2MUCH
- Start date
Flytier
New member
If I was riding next to this guy Steamer, and I didnt have a gun or a bear tag, I would be legal to ride. Where is the problem there? When thisa guy goes to court, they are going to have top prove three things to get a conviction. The will have to prove that he had the ability to hunt or kill a bear. We dont really know what type or caliber of gun he had with him. Then they have to prove he had motive to hunt. That could go either way depending on the type and caliber of gun he had. Then they have to prove he had the intent to hunt. Baiting and hunting can be considered two differant events. Then you take into consideration the intent of the law. I think this would be hard to prove to a jury. And I do hope this guy asks for a jury trial if he decides to take the matter to court because as we all know, jurors sometimes have more balls and common sense that the legislature that wrote the law. Consider all these things and I think a conviction would be hard to get.
However, I do agree 100 % that atv's should be limited in their use while hunting. But lets be fair about it and not just restrict the hunter, restrict everybody. It isnt fair that someone cant use the atv while baiting or hunting but I can ride my butt of right next to them and be legal. I dont like the noise from them anymore than anyone else. But fair is fair. I dont want them to be where we hunt, but until their is a law that prohibits them, dont screw with peoples legal right. If the legislature would just make a law saying it is illegal to use an atv while hunting, then fine. If they say it is illegal to use atv's in these areas during hunting season or whatever, then that is even better. Just be fair about it.
As for that forest fairy Steamer, it was big and mean and ugly and smelled a lot like bear poop.
However, I do agree 100 % that atv's should be limited in their use while hunting. But lets be fair about it and not just restrict the hunter, restrict everybody. It isnt fair that someone cant use the atv while baiting or hunting but I can ride my butt of right next to them and be legal. I dont like the noise from them anymore than anyone else. But fair is fair. I dont want them to be where we hunt, but until their is a law that prohibits them, dont screw with peoples legal right. If the legislature would just make a law saying it is illegal to use an atv while hunting, then fine. If they say it is illegal to use atv's in these areas during hunting season or whatever, then that is even better. Just be fair about it.
As for that forest fairy Steamer, it was big and mean and ugly and smelled a lot like bear poop.
BigHornyRam
New member
Next year, packing a rifle in a scabbard, on a hayburner, off trail could be illeagal. Year after that, who knows.
Paul
Paul
Ithaca 37
New member
I don't think this is a law passed by the Idaho Legislature. I think we're dealing with a F&G regulation.
Anyone with any sense realizes the intent of the regulation and would be careful not to come anywhere close to a violation. But I wonder if this guy even knew there was a regulation.
I know that when I was involved with CAP and on the inside for some of these new regs. the word from the top of the F&G was to use lots of judgement on people violating a new regulation.
But if everybody wants him to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court and get the NRA and the Brady Bunch involved that's terrific. The more publicity the better!
Gunner, You're a brave man to be carrying all those stale donuts around the wilderness without a gun!
I'm amazed all the wolves and bears haven't ambushed you yet!
I hope your efforts don't prove to be otiose.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-23-2003 09:16: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Anyone with any sense realizes the intent of the regulation and would be careful not to come anywhere close to a violation. But I wonder if this guy even knew there was a regulation.
I know that when I was involved with CAP and on the inside for some of these new regs. the word from the top of the F&G was to use lots of judgement on people violating a new regulation.
But if everybody wants him to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court and get the NRA and the Brady Bunch involved that's terrific. The more publicity the better!
Gunner, You're a brave man to be carrying all those stale donuts around the wilderness without a gun!
I hope your efforts don't prove to be otiose.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-23-2003 09:16: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
cjcj
New member
well i have to agree elkgunner you either close it to ALL ATV`s or maybee all motorized travel, then that would make some sence but to add the gun and then that`s the factor that makes it illegaL MAKES NO SENCE!
JoseCuervo
New member
CJ,
The ban was to address a problem with ATV's and people hunting off of them (already against the law), but unless an officer saw somebody shoot from the ATV, it was hard to enforce.
So the idea came up, if you ban ATVs+Guns+Big Game Tags+ Open Hunting Season = Violation.
The goal of this regulation was to not ban ATVs, but it was to aid in further reduction of people hunting from ATV's.
This is a hard one to understand anybody being upset with, unless it is from a perspective of anarchy, with all laws being Evil.
In Idaho, we still have 60+ units where this ban is not in effect. People that absolutely need to have an ATV to hunt, are able to.
And the original arguments of needing "protection" are a bunch of BS. The only reason the guy needs protection while hauling bait in on an ATV is because he is disrupting somebody elses' evening in the woods.
The ban was to address a problem with ATV's and people hunting off of them (already against the law), but unless an officer saw somebody shoot from the ATV, it was hard to enforce.
So the idea came up, if you ban ATVs+Guns+Big Game Tags+ Open Hunting Season = Violation.
The goal of this regulation was to not ban ATVs, but it was to aid in further reduction of people hunting from ATV's.
This is a hard one to understand anybody being upset with, unless it is from a perspective of anarchy, with all laws being Evil.
In Idaho, we still have 60+ units where this ban is not in effect. People that absolutely need to have an ATV to hunt, are able to.
And the original arguments of needing "protection" are a bunch of BS. The only reason the guy needs protection while hauling bait in on an ATV is because he is disrupting somebody elses' evening in the woods.
Steamer
New member
Elkgunner I'm with you.
Flytier if the guy was on an ATV has a hunting license, has a bear tag, was packing bear bait, and was caring a gun then the evidence would be prima facia that he was hunting. I agree that the use of ATV's for hunting should be restricted.
Flytier if the guy was on an ATV has a hunting license, has a bear tag, was packing bear bait, and was caring a gun then the evidence would be prima facia that he was hunting. I agree that the use of ATV's for hunting should be restricted.
cjcj
New member
what`s the point of having the atv`s if you can`t use them to hunt from? thing`s are a little differant down here in az. weve got kid`s that blast all over the place on them putting ton`s of dust in the air, and nobody does anything about them,this is in the desert, then weve got hunter`s who use them to get to their spot`s and we have jerk hunter`s too! we also have hunting area`s that are closed to ALL motorized travel, and to me that is is very clear, if this guy was in a small pickup under the same circumstances, would he be in violation? if not then to me this reg. makes no sence.
JoseCuervo
New member
Hey Flytier,
Since it looks like you are on the forum, I thought I would see if I could get a comment cleared up.
You posted: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If ya havent noticed, I tend to get a bit pissy when peoples gun rights are messed with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you really think this ATV ban is about Gun rights? And do you really think you have the "right" to carry a gun, where ever you want?
I think, in Idaho, you can not carry an uncased weapon in the field, without a hunting license. Not sure what "in the field means???"
And I think we all are aware we do not have the "right" to carry a gun onto commercial airplanes, or school buildings, or court houses, etc.. etc.. And none of those bans are for the purpose of restricting rights, but they are for making places safer, from the .00000001% of people who ARE nuts and DO have a gun.
Just thought it was interesting, that someone could take something good, like making people follow the law, and quit hunting on ATV's, and then view it as a 2nd ammendment issue.
It's late...
Since it looks like you are on the forum, I thought I would see if I could get a comment cleared up.
You posted: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If ya havent noticed, I tend to get a bit pissy when peoples gun rights are messed with. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you really think this ATV ban is about Gun rights? And do you really think you have the "right" to carry a gun, where ever you want?
I think, in Idaho, you can not carry an uncased weapon in the field, without a hunting license. Not sure what "in the field means???"
And I think we all are aware we do not have the "right" to carry a gun onto commercial airplanes, or school buildings, or court houses, etc.. etc.. And none of those bans are for the purpose of restricting rights, but they are for making places safer, from the .00000001% of people who ARE nuts and DO have a gun.
Just thought it was interesting, that someone could take something good, like making people follow the law, and quit hunting on ATV's, and then view it as a 2nd ammendment issue.
It's late...
Flytier
New member
Elkgunner, it seems that if he DIDNT have a gun with him, he would not have violated the law. That just stands out in my mind as being prejudicial. But then if he hadnt had a license or a tag with him he wouldnt have had a violation either. I see your point. The fact that he got a ticket because he had a gun with him got me riled up. As I'm sure it did a some people too. I dont really look at it as a 2nd Admentment thing, though it probably could border it quite easily. Just my opinion here.
Steamer, prima facia evidence doesnt always convince a jury.
Steamer, prima facia evidence doesnt always convince a jury.
Ten Bears
New member
I wonder how this will all come together. I don't see were the man was "hunting", he was hauling bait (to attract), but not "attracting" at the time of the "violation", unless he was in the act of placing his bait when he was seen. You can't be "attracting" game while your riding through the woods with the bait. You have to be "placing" the bait as an "attractant". It doesn't work until you place it.
We still don't know what kind of gun he was carrying either (clarification here would help as well).
We still don't know what kind of gun he was carrying either (clarification here would help as well).
Muledeer4me
New member
("MD et al.
Spend a little bit of time in the Bear section, and you can read about Moosie, ElkTurd, and myself's baiting this season.
My guess is we have hauled in close to 2000 pounds (that is not a Typo, yes, nearly a ton!!) to feed the bears. At no time have I ever felt the need to carry a weapon to protect myself (from Who, I have no clue ). In fact, the weight of the gun would be just more weight to carry.
We have also not needed to use an ATV to pack this bait in, so this culprit, caught breaking the law, may also be guilty of being a Fat-Assed ATV rider " )
WOW elkgunner,cool, so you , moosie and elkturd are tough SOB's and not frightened by all the sight's and sound's of the wood's .
You weren't trying to impressed us with that were you ?I have also helped pack in bait on my back with NO Firearm or ATV.
It's just not that impressive ,Lot's of people hunt and bait without the use of ATV's or packing a pistol,so what!!!
However if I decided to use my ATV where legal and I felt the need to pack my pistol,you can bet your ass I will be packing my pistol (law or no law).
I agree with that law up intill they tell you can't to pack a pistol in the wood's,then I say SCREW EM.
cjcj,the law is a good one in so far as we need some regulation's in place to stop some rider's that have no common sense,and ride off road and trail and hunt (shoot)from there machine.
But what I find really stupid about this law is that a person can still pack in there hunting camp and take in there firearm's,I see taking in bait as close to the same thing,If the guy isn't planning to hunt right then and only packing in to his bait station with his pistol.
Some people pack one all the time while riding and hunting .
I have some type of protection with me anytime im out by myself, I had a real close call with some drunk asshole's and I am not going to be in put in that spot again without a pistol.
Spend a little bit of time in the Bear section, and you can read about Moosie, ElkTurd, and myself's baiting this season.
My guess is we have hauled in close to 2000 pounds (that is not a Typo, yes, nearly a ton!!) to feed the bears. At no time have I ever felt the need to carry a weapon to protect myself (from Who, I have no clue ). In fact, the weight of the gun would be just more weight to carry.
We have also not needed to use an ATV to pack this bait in, so this culprit, caught breaking the law, may also be guilty of being a Fat-Assed ATV rider " )
WOW elkgunner,cool, so you , moosie and elkturd are tough SOB's and not frightened by all the sight's and sound's of the wood's .
You weren't trying to impressed us with that were you ?I have also helped pack in bait on my back with NO Firearm or ATV.
It's just not that impressive ,Lot's of people hunt and bait without the use of ATV's or packing a pistol,so what!!!
However if I decided to use my ATV where legal and I felt the need to pack my pistol,you can bet your ass I will be packing my pistol (law or no law).
I agree with that law up intill they tell you can't to pack a pistol in the wood's,then I say SCREW EM.
cjcj,the law is a good one in so far as we need some regulation's in place to stop some rider's that have no common sense,and ride off road and trail and hunt (shoot)from there machine.
But what I find really stupid about this law is that a person can still pack in there hunting camp and take in there firearm's,I see taking in bait as close to the same thing,If the guy isn't planning to hunt right then and only packing in to his bait station with his pistol.
Some people pack one all the time while riding and hunting .
I have some type of protection with me anytime im out by myself, I had a real close call with some drunk asshole's and I am not going to be in put in that spot again without a pistol.
RockyDog
Member
Ban 'em during the season,they are the worst thing to happen to hunting, EVER.
MD4M said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But what I find really stupid about this law is that a person can still pack in there hunting camp and take in there firearm's<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I couldn't agree with you more! They should have banned that, too.
Oak
Oak
Some clarification, I am completely in favor of getting the ATV"s under control during hunting season, the hunter wanna-be was packin a .44 mag, now the next week here is how it went think about this one, The first ATV rider strapped on two rifles and a bow and headed up the trail to a bait location about four miles in, he was their video man he had no bear tag so according to the regs he was legal , the other two followed behind on their ATV's with tags, but no firearms so now they were legal, they met and stayed a few days and hunted from their stands. I think there pushing for a complete ban by their actions, but the local game warden said his hands were tied on this one, and by the way his intepretation of the regs are NO FIREARMS OR BOWS on any ATV wether packing in camp or scouting or anything and I think he is right... h2m
Here is why I think this whole thing is a waste of space in the regulations.
In the area I have hunted many many years all the trails and roads are closed to motorized vehicles. Every year there are trucks, 4-wheelers and motorcycles going wherever they feel like going and never a ranger, warden, sherrif around doing squat about it.
Instead of more regulations how about some enforcement of the ones already in place.
In the area I have hunted many many years all the trails and roads are closed to motorized vehicles. Every year there are trucks, 4-wheelers and motorcycles going wherever they feel like going and never a ranger, warden, sherrif around doing squat about it.
Instead of more regulations how about some enforcement of the ones already in place.
JoseCuervo
New member
I still don't understand the argument that somebody needs protection on an ATV. If you need protection, go buy a condom..
I have yet to meet the first person to tell me that "Since I bought my ATV, I have killed more and bigger animals, by using it for hunting."
I do know that ATV hunting improves hunting for foot hunters and horse hunters who push into the areas where the animals have been pushed to by the throngs of ATV's roaring around.
I knew one group of Elk Hunters who hunted South of Warm Lake. They finally pushed an ATV trail in to where they like to hunt, and had awesome hunting the first year. The next year there were 3 other camps in the valley with them, and by the second year, they were complaining it was getting dangerous in there, from all the ATVs and the shooting and drinking.
Any advantage the ATV gives somebody, is probably short-lived, at best.
I have yet to meet the first person to tell me that "Since I bought my ATV, I have killed more and bigger animals, by using it for hunting."
I do know that ATV hunting improves hunting for foot hunters and horse hunters who push into the areas where the animals have been pushed to by the throngs of ATV's roaring around.
I knew one group of Elk Hunters who hunted South of Warm Lake. They finally pushed an ATV trail in to where they like to hunt, and had awesome hunting the first year. The next year there were 3 other camps in the valley with them, and by the second year, they were complaining it was getting dangerous in there, from all the ATVs and the shooting and drinking.
Any advantage the ATV gives somebody, is probably short-lived, at best.
Muledeer4me
New member
"I still don't understand the argument that somebody needs protection on an ATV. If you need protection, go buy a condom.. "
I have to agree with you on that statement,at least in some people's case we would be better off had there parent's used that condom.LOL
Sorry to burst your little bubble there elkgunner,but it's not alway's just you mild manner guy's out there hunting,I have run into some real ass hole's (yes on foot,on horse back ,in truck's and on the nasty ATV.)
I have no intention of giving up hunting,so I will have a pistol with me anytime I ride or hunt and might be alone.
I know other women hunter's that pack a pistol while bow hunting,or riding in there truck or on there ATV and happen to have a hunting lic. in there pocket or pack.
Maybe we need to ban the sissy women hunter's or make it illegal for them to be out alone if they dont feel like they can defend thereself if need be.
"I have yet to meet the first person to tell me that "Since I bought my ATV, I have killed more and bigger animals, by using it for hunting."
You are forgetting that not everyone that own's one HUNT's from it and that often it's used like a truck would be ,so in that regard let's also ban all motorized travel.
The fact is that it has made it to easer for people to kill bigger and better animal's because of ATV's,that's why we need the restriction on them.
Same thing goes for bigger and better 4-wheel drive's,easer access make's it easer to get to game,letting more people kill amimal's.
That's why we have gated road's and restriction's during hunting season.
While Steve and I usually hunt just the two of us ,having the ATV's doesn't leave one of us without a way to get around if we hunt different spot's.
"I do know that ATV hunting improves hunting for foot hunters and horse hunters who push into the areas where the animals have been pushed to by the throngs of ATV's roaring around."
LOL The Throng's of roaring ATV's, I like that,Drama work's.
Where you and Ithaca in the Drama Club's in school?
What we need are good inforcable restriction's not Drama driven Ban's because some people want everyone to do it there way.
What's the difference between riding an ATV or driving the truck,our ATV's are quiter then our disel truck is and we use our the same way.
I have to agree with you on that statement,at least in some people's case we would be better off had there parent's used that condom.LOL
Sorry to burst your little bubble there elkgunner,but it's not alway's just you mild manner guy's out there hunting,I have run into some real ass hole's (yes on foot,on horse back ,in truck's and on the nasty ATV.)
I have no intention of giving up hunting,so I will have a pistol with me anytime I ride or hunt and might be alone.
I know other women hunter's that pack a pistol while bow hunting,or riding in there truck or on there ATV and happen to have a hunting lic. in there pocket or pack.
Maybe we need to ban the sissy women hunter's or make it illegal for them to be out alone if they dont feel like they can defend thereself if need be.
"I have yet to meet the first person to tell me that "Since I bought my ATV, I have killed more and bigger animals, by using it for hunting."
You are forgetting that not everyone that own's one HUNT's from it and that often it's used like a truck would be ,so in that regard let's also ban all motorized travel.
The fact is that it has made it to easer for people to kill bigger and better animal's because of ATV's,that's why we need the restriction on them.
Same thing goes for bigger and better 4-wheel drive's,easer access make's it easer to get to game,letting more people kill amimal's.
That's why we have gated road's and restriction's during hunting season.
While Steve and I usually hunt just the two of us ,having the ATV's doesn't leave one of us without a way to get around if we hunt different spot's.
"I do know that ATV hunting improves hunting for foot hunters and horse hunters who push into the areas where the animals have been pushed to by the throngs of ATV's roaring around."
LOL The Throng's of roaring ATV's, I like that,Drama work's.
Where you and Ithaca in the Drama Club's in school?
What we need are good inforcable restriction's not Drama driven Ban's because some people want everyone to do it there way.
What's the difference between riding an ATV or driving the truck,our ATV's are quiter then our disel truck is and we use our the same way.
Ten Bears
New member
I wanna know who the game warden was that wrote that ticket. I still say you can't show the guy was hunting in any sense of the definition given.
JoseCuervo
New member
Ten,
Well, the orignial law breaker in this thread better hope he has a jury made up of people like you, who can't understand the law, the definition of hunting, and see the violation.
Again, the backlash against this law and this offense is amazing. I don't know why anybody would want to see this guy get off without a fine/lesson learned. There is no Noble cause this guy is fighting for, as he was caught hunting on an ATV with a firearm. It does not matter if he was carrying bait nor pursing game. It does not matter if he was carrying a .25 or a .454 Causell. He broke the law, the regulations have changed this year, they used Bold print, and the guy broke the law.
And I don't think arguing "corner cases" on this one is that productive. If somebody is hauling camp in, and they have a gun on an ATV, they may or may not be at risk. If they leave it cased, I think they might have the solution, or they can go in the day before the season opens.
MD4,
And I respect that I have not "walked a mile" in your shoes, or pumps
. So I respect that a woman may feel some sort of security by carrying a gun, but it is not the gun that gets her in trouble, as if she is carrying the Bow on the ATV while hunting, she is guilty also. This is not a gun issue, this is a hunting/ATV issue.
Additionally, do feel the need to carry a gun for protection around hunters and hunting seasons more than you do around trips to the Mall or to Costco? My guess is the ratio of scary hunters is about the same as the ratio of scary shoppers at the mall, and do you carry a gun to the Mall?
and MD quoted: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>so in that regard let's also ban all motorized travel.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> which sounds good.
And I thought you didn't pay attention in these debates. Glad to see you have come on over to Team Green!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The fact is that it has made it to easer for people to kill bigger and better animal's because of ATV's,that's why we need the restriction on them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is the first I have heard anyone say that this ban was to remove an "unfair" advantage the ATV riders had in hunting. I was not aware that their success was the motivating factor behind the increased regulations. I was sure the increased regulations were a result of trying to stem lawbreaking and enhancing the quality of the hunt for all.
I would like to see Unit 40 ban ATVs completely (and I told the F&G this in my comments) and see how many years it would take to lift the 2-Point rules down there. I think if the Throngs of ATV's quit killing every little forkhorn, we would get to see some quality hunting AGAIN for some incredibley MAJESTIC Mule Deer Bucks down there again. (Just showing of a little Drama there...)
Well, the orignial law breaker in this thread better hope he has a jury made up of people like you, who can't understand the law, the definition of hunting, and see the violation.
Again, the backlash against this law and this offense is amazing. I don't know why anybody would want to see this guy get off without a fine/lesson learned. There is no Noble cause this guy is fighting for, as he was caught hunting on an ATV with a firearm. It does not matter if he was carrying bait nor pursing game. It does not matter if he was carrying a .25 or a .454 Causell. He broke the law, the regulations have changed this year, they used Bold print, and the guy broke the law.
And I don't think arguing "corner cases" on this one is that productive. If somebody is hauling camp in, and they have a gun on an ATV, they may or may not be at risk. If they leave it cased, I think they might have the solution, or they can go in the day before the season opens.
MD4,
And I respect that I have not "walked a mile" in your shoes, or pumps
Additionally, do feel the need to carry a gun for protection around hunters and hunting seasons more than you do around trips to the Mall or to Costco? My guess is the ratio of scary hunters is about the same as the ratio of scary shoppers at the mall, and do you carry a gun to the Mall?
and MD quoted: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>so in that regard let's also ban all motorized travel.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> which sounds good.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The fact is that it has made it to easer for people to kill bigger and better animal's because of ATV's,that's why we need the restriction on them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is the first I have heard anyone say that this ban was to remove an "unfair" advantage the ATV riders had in hunting. I was not aware that their success was the motivating factor behind the increased regulations. I was sure the increased regulations were a result of trying to stem lawbreaking and enhancing the quality of the hunt for all.
I would like to see Unit 40 ban ATVs completely (and I told the F&G this in my comments) and see how many years it would take to lift the 2-Point rules down there. I think if the Throngs of ATV's quit killing every little forkhorn, we would get to see some quality hunting AGAIN for some incredibley MAJESTIC Mule Deer Bucks down there again. (Just showing of a little Drama there...)
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