I bought a double...now what?

[OntarioHunter]

I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about concerning pointing dogs.

An honest dog will hold pheasants, huns whatever... for you to flush. Does it work EVERY time? No, what does? Does it work a lot? It does in my experience.

Here's a mess of pheasants shot in December over big running pointing dogs.
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Where? Public land?

 

[406dn]

Where? Public land?

Montana. Private land open to hunting for all who asked.

I have enjoyed equal success on block management land in December. If you have fresh snow, it is almost too easy to clean up on roosters in the late afternoon. A trip that made for a lasting memory, I killed 8 roosters and a sharptail with 10 shots over a three day hunt. All of them were shot over a point.

I fully understand that not everyone wants to hunt with a pointing dog with a set of wheels. To each their own. But it is not true that pointing dogs are ineffective on late season birds.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about concerning pointing dogs.

An honest dog will hold pheasants, huns whatever... for you to flush. Does it work EVERY time? No, what does? Does it work a lot? It does in my experience.

Here's a mess of pheasants shot in December over big running pointing dogs.
View attachment 230186

I am speaking generally of course. All the guys from all over the country who show up late at the Montana bird refuge I hunt with their fancy dog trailers full of "big running pointing dogs" won't disagree with my analysis. I shot five daily limits last year on that place and only met one other guy with a limit ... shot over a young Lab. The birds spook at the mere sound of man or dog seventy yards away. They fly straight to the miles and miles of cattails. I suppose if you want to listen to a f*>&gn beeper all day, a big running dog MIGHT work in that crap ... if you don't tear an ACL trying to get to it before the bird busts again. And then whatta you do when a bird goes down? I hunted that place for five weeks and only saw maybe a couple dozen other hunters this past season. On average no one had a bird a day (except sharpies) and the guys with big running dogs usually drew a blank. I did much better because my Lab works real close AND she points well. In the bullrushes I just listen for her. When I don't hear anything, then get ready. Best part is she can retreive the birds in that jungle. Formerly, hunting two other Labs and my Fr Britt at the same time I was lucky if they could pick up one out of three in cattails. So I stopped hunting in the crap ... like everyone else. Now it's no worries. How Ellie can find downed birds in that stuff defies explanation. She can't see them go down and she can't see me for directions. Some kinda radar. I wonder if she hears them go down? Her ability to mark birds in the open is also like nothing I've seen before.

Must be four years ago now I found a new very large piece of state and federal land to hunt on the way home to Ontario. It was the first week of December and a bit of a hike in to the creek. Birds were so few and spooky that year, I decided to leave the Britt in the vehicle and hunt Ellie. I was four birds short of possession. We had a three rooster daily bag by the time I got to the creek! And those birds were holding. I must have stood for at least three minutes while Ellie held it the first one on point fifteen yards away. That was fun ... but not enough of it so I checked in at the closest motel. They had an empty kitchenette unit for me to stay in and I ate two birds that night. Next day I kept Ellie with me till we could get to the fabulous cover along the creek. Same thing. Not a ton of birds but they held amazingly (unnaturally?) tight. I remember once Ellie was on point less than ten yards away and facing me. I had dinked a rooster that glided down three hundred yards from the creek. We couldn't find it and were about half way back to the creek when she locked up. I looked down between us and didn't see anything. But she was rock solid so I stood there gun ready for several minutes. Finally I said "Sorry girl. False point [which is very rare]. Lets go." She didn't move. Her eyes looked at me then the ground between us. "Dad, it's right there!" I looked down again ... and saw an eye blink! I was only about an inch from standing on that rooster's tail! When I shuffled my feet to get freezing hands out of pockets and gun out from under my arm, up he jumped ... right into leaping Ellie's mouth! Turns out he'd been hit in the back. Anyway, I hunted that place for three days and ALL the birds in there held like that. What made it so different? I found out the following year. The next property downstream was trying to run a pay to play operation and buying pheasants from the Hutterites to plant for the dudes. I was shooting dumb pen raised birds. The drought killed that operation the next year and hunting the adjacent public land was back to normal: few birds and spooky as hell. I didn't bother making the long drive down there this year. That road is a SOB.

 

[406dn]

I am speaking generally of course.

I'd say you are pontificating about something you know little about. I get it you don't care for big running pointing dogs.

It is not much different than some prefer catching fish with flies, while others will state that a dozen worms will catch more fish. There is room for both.

So, rather than capping on pointing dogs at every opportunity, consider that some want to do it differently than you do.

 

[longbow51]

I don't care what kind of dog you have. By the end of the season, on our lease, which was huge, and not that many guys, when you OPENED a truck door the birds flushed. Admittedly, snowfall changes the game.

 

[TheJason]

This conversation cracks me up.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I'd say you are pontificating about something you know little about. I get it you don't care for big running pointing dogs.

It is not much different than some prefer catching fish with flies, while others will state that a dozen worms will catch more fish. There is room for both.

So, rather than capping on pointing dogs at every opportunity, consider that some want to do it differently than you do.

Actually, I have hunted over "big running pointing dogs." And even back in the days ten years plus ago when there were lots of wild public land pheasants, I didn't find it particularly fun, especially in heavy cover. Watching a speck on the horizon (or listen to it beeping) was a lot less exciting than my dog working next to me. I do have a pointing setter Fr Britt and though she's not a "big running dog," she has been too rangey for Montana pheasant hunting for several years now. Not enough birds due to all kinds adverse environmental factors plus increased hunting pressure has made for a whole different kind of hunting situation. I don't expect things will ever return to the good old days. From what I have observed, and I have observed a lot, the future of classic big running dog pheasant hunting seems to be pay-to-play, private property, and/or shooting stupid stocked birds on public land ... very quickly before the foxes and coyotes eat them all. It is what it is. I guess I'm really "crapping on" what pheasant hunting has become.

I hunt Montana uplands at least five weeks every fall since 2009 and many shorter episodes before that ... and one longer one when I worked a year on the Hi Line fourteen years ago. That fall I hunted almost daily. So just how much more experience do you have?

 

[406dn]

I am not so slow that I haven't picked up that you do not care for pointing dogs. I got it, no need for you to keep beating a dead horse.

We can agree that pheasant hunting has declined and will likely continue on that trend as more CRP land is returned to crop land.

The truth is most pointing dog owners prefer other birds to pheasants. I like them all, maybe huns the most.

As for experience, I've had pointing dogs the last thirty years. At first I hunted the hell out of them, killing a lot of birds every fall. Then I came across horseback field trials and have done that pretty seriously for the last twenty years. My dogs get run on birds between hunting and working them about a hundred days a year. I have won both open and amateur championships over the years. They've come close many other times.

Any more, I kill maybe a dozen birds a year. Could I kill more? Yeah, I think so.

Here is a photo from a day of fairly good dog work and decent shooting from me. I doubled on huns twice that day. Once each over two different dogs.

View attachment Untitled.jpeg


You are not the only person with experience in the outdoors

 

[OntarioHunter]

Sadly, chasing big running pointing dogs from a saddle is not something that's available to the average hunter these days. I say sadly because I once had horses for hunting and would have loved to chase bird dogs with them. My pack horse would have been nuts for that. She was a helluva cow puncher.

Between waterfowl hunting here and uplands in Montana I'm usually working my dogs almost a hundred days a year. It does make a difference. Never owned an e-collar, barrel, or check cord. I'm sure Ellie would never have amounted to much had the extensive field time not been available.

If I am so disparaging of pointing dogs, why do I own a couple of them? For the average Joe public land hunter who doesn't have horses or a lot of free time, a flushing Lab just makes more sense. They pretty much come trained right out of the chute. And most importantly, they work close.
I don't have to worry about keeping up with my Labs. They keep pace with me. No fancy electronics needed. Must have been five years ago I met a wealthy California guy and his son over breakfast at a small town cafe in eastern Montana (father was hunting with pre-war Sauer so yes, they had money!). Nice folks who wanted to get some birds so I agreed to let them tag along for the morning hunt. We were working a large piece of BM property with several miles of meandering brushy creek and beaver ponds bordered by hay and grain fields. They had a "big running" very expensive English pointer and I was using Lab Opal and my Fr Britt. I kept Lab Ellie with me as she wouldn't work with other dogs. After about an hour of several pheasants flushed but none of us getting a shot I hear the guy on other side of the field whistling like crazy and stabbing at his e-collar controller. I went over to see what was wrong. No dog. According to GPS it was several miles away and traveling at high speed ... too high for a dog! After both of us driving around for several hours, the dog finally showed up almost back where it disappeared. No e-collar. He figured a deer hunter caught the dog and swiped the collar. But that dog was no good without it. The guy had to drive several hours to Great Falls to pick up another collar ... with less bells and whistles. I almost never see anyone hunting a Lab with electronics (I don't think I've ever seen a springer with e-collar). But I almost never see anyone hunting big running pointing dogs without electronics. Hmmm.

This was a mixed bag last fall. Somewhat unusual for me as I typically don't bother with sharpies (don't care much for the taste of them) or Huns (usually too few around to justify shooting them), but the dogs needed some work. Actually, I can think of three Hun doubles in the last ten years or so. Kinda freaky because I seldom even get an opportunity to double on pheasants during these hard times. I think the narrow window of opportunity shooting Huns actually makes me a better shot. No time to overthink things. Note the gun is not wearing slip-on recoil pad. I removed it because I was wearing three layers.

 

[TheJason]

No time to overthink things.

Wish that were true here.

 

[Don Fischer]

I'd say you are pontificating about something you know little about. I get it you don't care for big running pointing dogs.

It is not much different than some prefer catching fish with flies, while others will state that a dozen worms will catch more fish. There is room for both.

So, rather than capping on pointing dogs at every opportunity, consider that some want to do it differently than you do.

I don't care for big running pointing dogs either. Dog running 900+ yds out and points a bird will not in most case's hold the bird till the hunter get there! had a guy disagree with me once. Told me his dog stood on point for over a half hour while he got to it. Dog had the birds pointed in some brush in trees about 100 yds in front of the dog. I suggested the dog pointed the bird much closer and after a while the birds walked out to where they felt safe. he say's that could well have happened. His dog he had down, NGSPA Nat Ch and trained not to move till sent on. Dog did everything the way it was trained but wild birds are going to hold only so long and walk out. I know, that would not have happened with your dog's! I've been hunting pointing dogs for about fourty years now and have seen just enough to say if your gonna get shots over them either it will be wild flush's or fairly close shooting. Not one of those the dog stood to long and the birds went out. trial dogs are not permitted to re-locate on their own so birds walking out with no gunner there are welcome to go.

BTW, I have judged NSTRA, AKC and AF. I do have a little experience with pointing dogs. have Red Setter's now and in the past GSP's, EP, E setters and have trained Brittanys and a few Vizlas!

 

[406dn]

Sadly, chasing big running pointing dogs from a saddle is not something that's available to the average hunter these days. I say sadly because I once had horses for hunting and would have loved to chase bird dogs with them.

If you are chasing a dog with a horse, it is not going well. The dog is handled from a horse, exactly like afoot, only far better. Dogs that are handled from a horse may also be handled from afoot. I do that every fall.

Also, a good pointing dog saves you steps. If not, again it is not going well.

 

[406dn]

I don't care for big running pointing dogs either. Dog running 900+ yds out and points a bird will not in most case's hold the bird till the hunter get there! had a guy disagree with me once. Told me his dog stood on point for over a half hour while he got to it. Dog had the birds pointed in some brush in trees about 100 yds in front of the dog. I suggested the dog pointed the bird much closer and after a while the birds walked out to where they felt safe. he say's that could well have happened. His dog he had down, NGSPA Nat Ch and trained not to move till sent on. Dog did everything the way it was trained but wild birds are going to hold only so long and walk out. I know, that would not have happened with your dog's! I've been hunting pointing dogs for about fourty years now and have seen just enough to say if your gonna get shots over them either it will be wild flush's or fairly close shooting. Not one of those the dog stood to long and the birds went out. trial dogs are not permitted to re-locate on their own so birds walking out with no gunner there are welcome to go.

BTW, I have judged NSTRA, AKC and AF. I do have a little experience with pointing dogs. have Red Setter's now and in the past GSP's, EP, E setters and have trained Brittanys and a few Vizlas!

That's fine, it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

No one will ever know the circumstance between the guy's dog and those birds. I have seen birds pointed from that far away when scenting conditions are real good and its a group of birds.

Also, a dog in field trials is ABSOLUTELY allowed to self relocate before a handler begins to flush. Only after the flushing attempt has begun does the dog have to remain where it is standing.

However if during a self relocation, the birds flush... the dog is done for the day.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Dealing with walking birds is what makes my current Lab remarkable. I'll never forget the first time. For the first two years Ellie was pretty much a nuisance to hunt with. Got in the way of the other Lab's retreives and busted my Fr Britt's points. So I kept her with me while working the other dogs. One morning out of Geraldine on big piece of CRP in a cold hard north wind, I was hunting only the Britt because my older Lab was beat. After flushing the first two roosters without seeing Puppy on point in that tall crap I decided to give up. Not worth freezing to death. Back at the vehicle I loaded Puppy but Ellie was giving me the sad-eye. "Well, alright. Let's see how you fly solo." About a hundred yards down the fenceline of an adjacent grain field she went on point. On point? "Whatta ya doing? Have you got a porky over there?" She didn't move. As I walked to her, gun under arm and hands in pockets, a squawking rooster jumps up and gone downwind in an instant. What the...? I watched the rooster land in the middle of CRP. Further down the fence line she went on point again. This time I got ready. A flock of Huns flushed but no chance for a good shot in that hurricane. Look at this!! As I worked her down the middle of the grain field she was on a running bird but I held her back easily. As expected, we caught up to him in cover at the end of the field. Within a few yards of me Ellie locked up in a beautiful point. That bird didn't stand a chance. She made only her second retreive and right to hand. Okay!! We worked our way back up the CRP towards the Jimmy. I knew about where the first rooster landed and sure enough Ellie goes on point again. This time she's almost forty yards away. "Wait!" She does. I get within range and get ready. Then she breaks point ... sort of. The rooster is moving and, like a cat, Ellie moves with it, stopping on point, then stalking head down and staying downwind. The rooster only moved about twenty yards before giving up and flushing into the wind. I clipped a wing and down he went. Uh oh. Can she handle a crippled running rooster? Quite the drag race ended in a classic merry-go-round with bird barely unable to fly and dog with flapping ears bouncing up and down after it. She got him. Ellie locked up again almost at the Jimmy and I filled my limit with a rooster that had no choice but to fly by in thirty mph wind.

My other Lab Opal would also point if she could see the bird ... and it didn't move. But if it blinked she'd push it up. Like a good pointing dog, Ellie will point if she's on the bird but doesn't necessarily have to see it. And almost no false points. If a bird moves I can get her to wait for me if not there yet. All this without any pointing training whatsoever. Just out of the blue one day when I happened to finally work her alone. Go figure.

 

[MTLabrador]

FESANTS ar from CHINA!!! TH3M AR COMMIE BIRDS!!!

 

[Don Fischer]

That's fine, it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

No one will ever know the circumstance between the guy's dog and those birds. I have seen birds pointed from that far away when scenting conditions are real good and its a group of birds.

Also, a dog in field trials is ABSOLUTELY allowed to self relocate before a handler begins to flush. Only after the flushing attempt has begun does the dog have to remain where it is standing.

However if during a self relocation, the birds flush... the dog is done for the day.

In a trial, the dog cannot relocate on it's own after point is called. Those long range birds you think your dog got are probably birds that walked away after being pointed! Imagine the size of a scent cone at 100yds if in fact it's there at all!

 

[TheJason]

I’m glad my dog relocates on wild birds when I’m hunting.

 

[406dn]

In a trial, the dog cannot relocate on it's own after point is called. Those long range birds you think your dog got are probably birds that walked away after being pointed! Imagine the size of a scent cone at 100yds if in fact it's there at all!

I have seen it many times, my dogs have done it. The dog is free to relocate until you dismount and begin a flushing attempt. One of the bigger concerns for every field trialer is the dog having an unproductive point. It is an asset for a dog to relocate if the dog decides the birds have moved or left.

A handler is perfectly in their rights to waive off a call of point. It happens ALL the time. If the dog moves, the handler waves their hat and waits to see what develops. Most of the time the dog decides it does not have birds and leaves. But there are also times where the dog moves and repoints the birds.

Now, concerning a dog pointing birds from well off. If you have not seen it, then I have to wonder how much experience you really have. Many years ago now, before I field trialed, on a late season day, with maybe two inches of snow on the ground, hunting land that undulated in a series of shallow draws, my dog went on point near the crest of a rise. I flushed out a good ways and found nothing. After releasing her, she pointed again at near the crest of the next rise. That flushing attempt produced nothing. When released again she again pointed at near the crest of the next rise. That point produced maybe thirty sage hens, flushing fifty yards or so in front of her.

Given the sparseness of the cover, I think I would have seen a large flock of sage hens walking out from her early points. From her first point to the final point was well over a hundred yards. So yes, on the right day, a dog can smell birds from a long ways off.

When this dog was a year and change, I watched her go to huns from easily three hundred yards. She hit scent, turned into the wind and went straight up wind that distance and then pointed. Again that day had some snow, mild temperatures and a nice breeze.



This photo was taken on a point on sharptails. They held while I shot several photos, then I flushed them about thirty yards in front of her.

 

[newmexicohunter12]

Some of y'all know I got my first gun dog last year. After a fun year of training and some good hunts, I was still getting the stink eye from the pup.
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So I finally broke down and bought her a new shotgun for this fall...

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I know some of the resident shotty gun purists (ahem, @Ben Lamb @BrentD ) may flick their noses at the gloss wood, but hey I got a pretty good deal and kinda like it.

I need to add about 1.5" to LOP so will be getting a butt pad spacer and factory thicker pad.

My question, how do you like to set up your barrels and chokes for pheasants / quail etc? I assume generally speaking bottom barrel first is preferred? Full over modified? Mod over IC?

I hunt quail with a german short hair and an over under, the new shot gun is awesome!

 

[newmexicohunter12]

I have seen it many times, my dogs have done it. The dog is free to relocate until you dismount and begin a flushing attempt. One of the bigger concerns for every field trialer is the dog having an unproductive point. It is an asset for a dog to relocate if the dog decides the birds have moved or left.

A handler is perfectly in their rights to waive off a call of point. It happens ALL the time. If the dog moves, the handler waves their hat and waits to see what develops. Most of the time the dog decides it does not have birds and leaves. But there are also times where the dog moves and repoints the birds.

Now, concerning a dog pointing birds from well off. If you have not seen it, then I have to wonder how much experience you really have. Many years ago now, before I field trialed, on a late season day, with maybe two inches of snow on the ground, hunting land that undulated in a series of shallow draws, my dog went on point near the crest of a rise. I flushed out a good ways and found nothing. After releasing her, she pointed again at near the crest of the next rise. That flushing attempt produced nothing. When released again she again pointed at near the crest of the next rise. That point produced maybe thirty sage hens, flushing fifty yards or so in front of her.

Given the sparseness of the cover, I think I would have seen a large flock of sage hens walking out from her early points. From her first point to the final point was well over a hundred yards. So yes, on the right day, a dog can smell birds from a long ways off.

When this dog was a year and change, I watched her go to huns from easily three hundred yards. She hit scent, turned into the wind and went straight up wind that distance and then pointed. Again that day had some snow, mild temperatures and a nice breeze.

View attachment 230367

This photo was taken on a point on sharptails. They held while I shot several photos, then I flushed them about thirty yards in front of her.

Beautiful point, and beautiful dog!