How to decimate a mule deer herd: A case study in Wyoming

[perma]

Then to ice the cake he says, “we’re really hoping you guys will fight the crap that’s coming this legislative session”.

I think the question I would have asked was 'how do you expect the general public (nobodies like me for example) to advocate for their opinions when well known figures like myself are not heard'? I know that my emails were left unanswered, without even a 'thanks for the email' type deal.

First time I'm getting into this stuff with public comments to commissioners, so I don't know the etiquette here. I can say it's just weird that emails go into thin air like that.

 

[antlerradar]

A lot of ranchers like crested wheatgrass because it can handle multiple grazings, still greens up after the fall rains, and can handle high alkaline soils. Your previous comments about private lands falls right in line with the Savory grazing plan and not resting soils.

Others were talking about sagebrush, I wonder how much winter fat has been depleted since 1950, and it is highly beneficial for wintering mule deer and other big game.

I think a lot of crested wheatgrass got planted after the droughts of the 30's. After 50 years of grazing the land to the dirt, I would bet that a lot of pastures were predominately Blue Gramma. Ranchers/homesteaders needed something for spring and fall pasture and crested wheatgrass was cheap, easy to establish and provided the early spring grazing they wanted.

I don't think that big sagebrush is nearly as important to mule deer in SE Montana as it is in say Western Wy. Plenty of other plants that they prefer over sagebrush. Winter fat, yucca, rabbitbrush and Sumac are good examples.

 

[hunter49]

Been lurking a long time. Joined cause the miss info on this thread is astounding. To think that overgrazing a landscape is beneficial is mind blowing. Native perennials, while dependent on short duration high intensity grazing. Cannot withstand the impact of long term continus grazing. Plants start to sluff off roots which weaken the plant and after a few years they can no long compete which opens up soil space for invasives.

Cattle although not the root of the problem, can be. The way we choose to manage is.

 

[antlerradar]

Been lurking a long time. Joined cause the miss info on this thread is astounding. To think that overgrazing a landscape is beneficial is mind blowing. Native perennials, while dependent on short duration high intensity grazing. Cannot withstand the impact of long term continus grazing. Plants start to sluff off roots which weaken the plant and after a few years they can no long compete which opens up soil space for invasives.

Cattle although not the root of the problem, can be. The way we choose to manage is.

I don't think anyone is saying overgrazing is beneficial.

 

[hunter49]

Public land was grazed by cattle much harder in the 50's and 60's. Part of the issue for mule deer is that less cattle grazing tends to give advantages to grassland species that favor elk more than mule deer. More grass, fewer forbes and shrubs is not a recipe for more mule deer.

Sure about that?

 

[antlerradar]

Sure about that?

Can not speak for all places, but I can for the Custer. During the 50's there was few if any allotments using a rotation system for grazing, Most were season long and that season started in April and ended in December. Now Most allotments had some kind of rotation and do not turn out until the middle of May, cattle are mostly off by the middle of October. Five thousand AUM's have been cut on the Custer since the 90's. I don't think the Custer is the exception.

 

[hunter49]

Can not speak for all places, but I can for the Custer. During the 50's there was few if any allotments using a rotation system for grazing, Most were season long and cut on the Custer since the 90's. I don't think the Custer is the exceptionso

So your advocating to graze mid of May to mid October. Literally peak native growth season, inverse to invasive cool season growth time frame.

 

[manitou1]

Been lurking a long time. Joined cause the miss info on this thread is astounding. To think that overgrazing a landscape is beneficial is mind blowing. Native perennials, while dependent on short duration high intensity grazing. Cannot withstand the impact of long term continus grazing. Plants start to sluff off roots which weaken the plant and after a few years they can no long compete which opens up soil space for invasives.

Cattle although not the root of the problem, can be. The way we choose to manage is.

Amen and amen! The elephant in the room has been spoken about!

 

[Hunting Wife]

So your advocating to graze mid of May to mid October. Literally peak native growth season, inverse to invasive cool season growth time frame.

WTF are you talking about? No one has said any of the things you apparently joined up to rant about.

 

[BigHornRam]

I think a lot of crested wheatgrass got planted after the droughts of the 30's. After 50 years of grazing the land to the dirt, I would bet that a lot of pastures were predominately Blue Gramma. Ranchers/homesteaders needed something for spring and fall pasture and crested wheatgrass was cheap, easy to establish and provided the early spring grazing they wanted.

I don't think that big sagebrush is nearly as important to mule deer in SE Montana as it is in say Western Wy. Plenty of other plants that they prefer over sagebrush. Winter fat, yucca, rabbitbrush and Sumac are good examples.

Bitterbrush and buckbrush are important winter scrubs on the west side. Do you have much of that around you, Art?

 

[the nikster]

I agree with this 100%.

A major reason for this is the dramatic increase in nonnative invasive plants, especially grasses, that have essentially resulted in monotypic stands of invasive grass across the west. Kentucky bluegrass, smooth brome, crested wheatgrass, cheatgrass and Japanese brome…there are millions of acres where the forb/shrub component has been severely reduced or even eliminated due to competition from invasives. That’s very bad for mule deer. If we eliminate disturbance (cattle grazing quite often), this invasion accelerates in grassland ecosystems. I’m not saying overgrazing isn’t a problem, particularly on public. But there’s a reason the highest quality prairie and grasslands that I have personally ever seen are typically found on private working lands. They sure as hell aren’t found on idle ground.

Changes in weather patterns and precipitation abundance and timing aren’t helping the native plants hang on, either. That’s resulted in changes to plant communities and succession that affect all types of habitats mule deer use.

Back in the day, deer could migrate to better foraging grounds when weather events or forage quality weren’t optimal, but I think we all know by now the enormous barriers impacting migration corridors that exist on the landscape today. Not to mention the losses of high quality winter range to migrate to in the first place.

Those changes in weather patterns are also driving changes in disease emergence and spread. As we see climactic shifts, we’ve got expansion of parasites and vector-borne diseases (EHD for example) that aren’t good news for deer either.

The relative weight of all of these factors, and others, likely varies among different populations but I suspect the range wide decline of mule deer is much more a factor of “death by a thousand cuts” than any single variable alone. Folks like to get all wrapped around the axle over single issues (it’s the predators! It’s the habitat!), but it just isn’t that simple.

Ding, ding, ding, ding! IMHO.

 

[Pagosa]

Sure about that?

The Custer National Forest, Long Pines, and parts of the Yellowstone hills have amazing regrowth after the recent fires, grass, forb, and shrub regrowth is not the issue. There are even pockets of aspens regrowing. The replanting of the non-native species is most likely not an issue either, if you realize that a majority of deer concentrate on either alfalfa or sanflion fields in the winter months. Likewise a lot of deer concentrate on the MDOT/WDOT right-of-ways because of the grasses being periodically mowed and better species that in other areas, which leads to more roadkills.

I’ve spoken with lots of old ranchers in eastern MT/WY and read historical accounts and the land must have been severely overgrazed back in the day, because the pioneers and Indians had to feed their horses cottonwood bark in the winter months, which means those poor things had nothing to eat. I bet the land is way more productive now than 100 years ago, for both wildlife and domestic.

 

[kwyeewyk]

their horses cottonwood bark in the winter months, which means those poor things had nothing to eat. I bet the land is way more productive now than 100 years ago, for both wildlife and domestic.

Not sure that is the best indicator, humans are good at depleting resources near their dwelling place, horses had to be penned in, probably plenty of feed a few miles away but they couldn't use it.

I think there are areas that had been heavily grazed that aren’t now and have recovered to some extent, but many severely overgrazed areas were pushed into a state transition and haven't and won't recover without restoration intervention. Not speaking about Powder river or eastern Montana specifically, just speaking generally about the west.

Every decade more habitat is converted or fragmented, more acres lost to invasives. Not sure how that can be disputed or denied on the large scale.

So your advocating to graze mid of May to mid October. Literally peak native growth season, inverse to invasive cool season growth time frame.

May to October with pasture rotation and limited AUMs is way better than April to November running high AUMs and no rotation.

 

[antlerradar]

Bitterbrush and buckbrush are important winter scrubs on the west side. Do you have much of that around you, Art?

Not much bitterbrush,if any. Lots of stuff is called buckbrush, what people are calling buckbrush here may not be the same plant in western Montana. Mostly the term is used for skunkbrush sumac here. Lots of skunkbrush and very valuable as deer food.

 

[antlerradar]

I’ve spoken with lots of old ranchers in eastern MT/WY and read historical accounts and the land must have been severely overgrazed back in the day, because the pioneers and Indians had to feed their horses cottonwood bark in the winter months, which means those poor things had nothing to eat. I bet the land is way more productive now than 100 years ago, for both wildlife and domestic.

Not sure that is the best indicator, humans are good at depleting resources near their dwelling place, horses had to be penned in, probably plenty of feed a few miles away but they couldn't use it.

My ancestors actually did this in the winter of 1919. It wasn't the norm, but more of an act of desperation to prevent cows from starving and freezing to death. For the most part it was a failure. Cows will eat just about anything when the snow is deep and fifty below zero outside. Browsed the greasewood down to the size of your little finger. Of course it punctured their guts and they died. Great grandfather said the piles of greasewood sticks lasted for years.

 

[CT_SD]

I-90 between Buffalo and Gillette is scary to drive at night. Deer all over the interstate-I’ve even seen them bedded in the median between lanes. New fencing and wildlife crossings would do a lot in this area. Lots of new fence west of Rapid City heading west towards the WY border put in this year-I’ve seen fewer dead deer laying along the road since it went in.

 

[antlerradar]

So your advocating to graze mid of May to mid October. Literally peak native growth season, inverse to invasive cool season growth time frame.

Please do not try to put words in my mouth and why did you alter my quote? WTF is right

 

[perma]

Please do not try to put words in my mouth and why did you alter my quote? WTF is right

I thought it was just me…

 

[antlerradar]

Amen and amen! The elephant in the room has been spoken about!

Going back to the grazing systems and AUM's of the 80s will not bring the mule deer back and eliminating grazing will not magically restore the west to the populations of my youth ether. The elephant in the room is wearing blaze orange.

 

[Bigjay73]

"The elephant in the room is wearing blaze orange."


I'm willing to bet most hunters don't realize how bad things are, and will gladly stop hunting does and go along with tag cuts if need be. Id be okay if the biologists said no more hunting at all if it brough the herds back . My home state of AZ has only 1 doe hunt, and we're absolutely okay with that, i think most hunters are conservationists.