How do wolves qualify???

[trevore]

Can someone tell me how the wolves qualify for protection under the ESA when there are over 50K in Canada alone? Wikipedia lists them as an animal of least concern?? Doesn't the ESA deal with a threatened specie in it's home range?? Or are they afforded protection via something else? I'm confused.

Thanks

 

[1_pointer]

You realize that US laws and regulations often don't extend beyond our borders right?

As an aside, I think wolves are currently only protected (in states with appreciable populations) by ESA in Wyoming.

 

[trevore]

I understand that. But my question is: How are the feds offering protection to a specie that isn't threatened?

The whole argument for the protection of the scimitar, addax and dama ( I know it's a sore subject here due to the high fence) was that they are endangered/extinct/threatened in their respective home ranges. So the courts ruled to limit the hunting to those who qualify for permits. So, if the fed is using the ESA to protect the wolves in the lower 48, it's really an invalid argument, since they are not even classified as threatened. In fact if wikipedia is correct, they are an animal of least concern. Same classification as the elk,deer etc.

So in essence, if that is the line of protection, the feds have no cause and the states should be allowed to manage them just like the rest of the wildlife, on their terms. What am I missing here.

 

[BuzzH]

Dude,

You have google at your finger tips...try endangered species act. Its all there and all your questions are answered if you read it.

A species like wolves or grizzly bears can be classified in just the lower 48 because its a distinct population segment that is threatened or endangered.

(16) The term “species” includes any subspecies of fish or wildlife or plants, and any distinct population segment of any species of vertebrate fish or wildlife which interbreeds when mature.


(20) The term “threatened species” means any species which is likely to become an endangered species within the foreseeable future throughout all or a significant portion of its range.

The reason that wolves were delisted in Montana and Idaho but not Wyoming is because under the ESA the USFWS must have assurance that the wolf management plan(s) are adequate to ensure the species will remain off the list. Wyomings plan is not acceptable...at least not yet.

As for addax and schimatar horned oryx...they probably qualify under CITES:

International Species The ESA also implements U.S. participation in the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES), a 175-nation agreement designed to prevent species from becoming endangered or extinct due to international trade. Except as allowed
by permit, CITES prohibits importing or exporting species listed on its three appendices. A species may require a permit under the ESA, CITES, or both.

 

[trevore]

Thanks Buzz

 

[1_pointer]

Yeah, what he said!

 

[sweetnectar]

Ya the ESA is a bit backwards. It is too bad it creates incentive to eradicate an endangered species if you find it near your project or on your property.
As far as wolves as a whole....there is no way they are endangered except when you section off some land that you think they should be on and then.....

 

[jmcd]

Trevore,
Your common-sense thinking points out how flawed the ESA is. Its sort of funny that two govt dudes come flying right in to straighten you out on ESA though.

 

[shoots-straight]

jmcd, human interaction and manipulation of the act is what's "Flawed". The actual writing of the wolf plan was set up for desaster. IMO. Before anyone starts, please spare us the T-Rex analogy.

Bald Headed Eagles were still holding strong populations in Alaska, and Canada. Was it a mistake protecting them, to bring their populations back in areas of this country where they were gone?

The ESA is still a very popular law.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I understand that. But my question is: How are the feds offering protection to a specie that isn't threatened?

So in essence, if that is the line of protection, the feds have no cause and the states should be allowed to manage them just like the rest of the wildlife, on their terms. What am I missing here.

trevore,

The Feds are following the law that congress wrote, and Nixon signed. Within the ESA, the USFWS is charged with managing those species that have been listed. Their only jurisdiction is in the USA, so what happens in Canada is of no consequence in terms of listing a species.

Wolves were extirpated in the lower 48, and placed on the ESA in the 70's to help facilitate their recovery.

The states do not have sole jurisdiction over wildlife management. For example, the Migratory Bird Treaty helps set duck limits and seasons across America. The ESA itself is a good tool, but could use some upgrading to deal with the issues that Nectar has pointed out. I'd like to see some incentives for private land owners to help conserve ES, personally. I think it would go a long way in making partners out of traditional adversaries.

 

[trevore]

Thanks Ben

I've been reading up on the wolf stuff, just trying to see where things went and how. Hunting out of my home state wasn't even on the radar back when this happened. But now, I like to hunt CO and NM. So when the info came out about the "possibility" of wolves being reintroduced into the Baca area, which is where I happen to hunt, I started digging.

I had misunderstood the DPS phrase. I thought that had to do with different identifiable sub species. Not a geographically different sect of a specie.

As far as what happens outside of the US, that's why I mentioned the Oryx situation. The resident populations here in Texas are pretty significant, so I'm not sure why they would "re-list" them based on their home range.

Thanks again
I'm learning, I think

 

[Ben Lamb]

Thanks Ben

I've been reading up on the wolf stuff, just trying to see where things went and how. Hunting out of my home state wasn't even on the radar back when this happened. But now, I like to hunt CO and NM. So when the info came out about the "possibility" of wolves being reintroduced into the Baca area, which is where I happen to hunt, I started digging.

I had misunderstood the DPS phrase. I thought that had to do with different identifiable sub species. Not a geographically different sect of a specie.

As far as what happens outside of the US, that's why I mentioned the Oryx situation. The resident populations here in Texas are pretty significant, so I'm not sure why they would "re-list" them based on their home range.

Thanks again
I'm learning, I think

Anytime. Decoding the ESA is a more than full time job. Certainly keeps lawyers happy.

 

[dustinf]

Certainly keeps lawyers happy.

And well paid. There is a clause that the government has to pay back certain legal fees, when the act is challenged.

There was an article in Fur Fish and Game last year about it. I'll find a link when I get home in the morning. Posting from my phone is a PITA.

Found one from American Hunter: http://www.americanhunter.org/m-articlepage.aspx?id=3313&cid=57

 

[Ben Lamb]

And well paid. There is a clause that the government has to pay back certain legal fees, when the act is challenged.

There was an article in Fur Fish and Game last year about it. I'll find a link when I get home in the morning. Posting from my phone is a PITA.

Found one from American Hunter: http://www.americanhunter.org/m-articlepage.aspx?id=3313&cid=57

Yes, the Equal Access to Justice Act (EAJA). The key is that the expenses are only recoverable if you win; i.e. the gov't screwed up and broke the law.

There is a bill in the senate right now that calls for an investigation from the AG's office to account for whom is suing, and how much they are collecting. It basically eliminates one of Gingrich's bills back in 1995 - the paperwork reduction act, which discontinued to the records collection on EAJA.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I am this close( ) to moving to canada.

 

[fowladdict]

I am this close( ) to moving to canada.

Why is that bud? You and your better half have tagged three smokers in the last three years.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Why is that bud? You and your better half have tagged three smokers in the last three years.

Well technically it's been in the last 5 years. The tree huggers in the us have way too much power and there is definitely some advantages to being a hunter who is a resident of some places in canada.

 

[Breaks Runner]

Saskatchewan.....best mule deer hunting on the planet. Period. Gun laws up there suck azz though.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

trevore---They didn't "relist" them. They've always been on the ESA and the USFWS just exempted their killing from the permit process in 2005. That was taken to Court by the antis and the Court recently ruled in their favor and the USFWS will now have to require that the permit system be reinstituted. Here is a litlle blurb on what is happening:

In 2005 the USFWS added three species of African antelope to the endangered species list, but an exception was made that allowed these species to legally be hunted without a permit.

Danielle Kessler, outreach specialist for the USFWS said a court ruling ordered the USFWS to remove this exception and formalize the process of antelope conservation. The majority of game ranches with antelope populations are in Texas where the species came on ships long ago and now thrives in there, while in Africa their numbers are dwindling. The ruling that goes into effect April 4, 2012 nullifies the exception that ranchers do not need a permit to allow these three species to be hunted on their property.

Beginning April 4th, ranchers will need a permit to allow hunting of the dama gazelle, addax and the scimitar-horned oryx on their property. A permit will also be required if ranchers wish to engage in commerce

 

[TOM IN TENNESSEE]

And the process for those and likely Black Buck if not handled well by US-FWS (hahahahahahaha) will lead to these animals having no value to the ranchers who have invested in them thereby contributing to their actual extinction....ask FWS why hunters from essentially every country in world can import Black Faced Impala, Cheetah, Polar Bear, Ele from MOZ, etc except US citizens???? Can you say "POLITICS" ???