How cold is too cold?

[thatsjet]

I was about to post a thread asking how to stay warm without a hot tent. I think i have some ideas now, even without “snapping the radish”... whatever that is.

 

[Dave N]

Google is your friend. Maybe...

 

[thatsjet]

Google is your friend. Maybe...

I’m afraid

 

[JLS]

 

[EYJONAS!]

Can you use it on a sentence he says........


Disclaimer: No, I don't do that in camp. Your safe jet. I promise

 

[mxracer317]

Look into the Big Agnes Cinnabar -20F. Toasty warm all night long. Day time: layers, and down gear. You have the highest chance of success because the other hunters stay in when the weather is cold.

 

[johnnyg08]

Some great tips and discussion here. Thanks!

 

[David58]

I haven't read every post (please forgive me), but I find a wool blanket over my sleeping bag adds a tremendous amount of warmth, especially if I have a good pad under me. From the rig that is real do-able, but if backpacking in adds a bit of excess weight and from there I'd either go with a new sleeping bag (spendy) or a sleeping bag liner (inexpensive).

 

[WyoDoug]

I use a good sleeping pad with additional blankets over it as padding and then a good artic sleeping bag with quilts over me. I sleep with the clothes and boots for next day in the sleeping bag with me to keep them warm. Hate getting into cold clothes in the AM.

 

[DouglasR]

I was out Sunday night, -10 or so was the forecast, some wind but it quieted down around midnight. It was good hunting, sorta...elk everywhere but couldn't pin down a bull. I did watch a heavy 180-ish muley for a bit and had a lot of big country to myself. It was fine, condensation was a pain but it goes with the territory.

What’s your sleep system consist of?
What bag do you use?
Do you sleep inside a bivy inside your tent to keep condensation off your bag?
If you had something along the lines of a WM bison or puma with the gore Tex shell would you be comfortable taking that on week long trips without a bivy to protect from condensation?
Is there a more cost effective or packable option than western mountaineering?
(buy once cry once/resale value and basically just have the ability to anything I want to do outdoors in the future)
Im not saying I’m buying one of these tomorrow, but I’m thinking I might start trying some fly in/out, ski/camp trips and I’d like to be able to save as much room in my pack as possible so I can carry it on the plane so it would be cool to upgrade from my current liner, 30 degree, 10 degree, bivy setup.
and that’s just too much shit to get tangled up in.
The last 2 nights of my recent trip I ditched the liner and bivy and wore my puffy coat and insulated snow pants and was much more comfortable than I was in the 4 bag setup.
condensation on my bag without a bivy to protect it was an issue though.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

What’s your sleep system consist of?
What bag do you use?
Do you sleep inside a bivy inside your tent to keep condensation off your bag?
If you had something along the lines of a WM bison or puma with the gore Tex shell would you be comfortable taking that on week long trips without a bivy to protect from condensation?
Is there a more cost effective or packable option than western mountaineering?
(buy once cry once/resale value and basically just have the ability to anything I want to do outdoors in the future)
Im not saying I’m buying one of these tomorrow, but I’m thinking I might start trying some fly in/out, ski/camp trips and I’d like to be able to save as much room in my pack as possible so I can carry it on the plane so it would be cool to upgrade from my current liner, 30 degree, 10 degree, bivy setup.
and that’s just too much shit to get tangled up in.
The last 2 nights of my recent trip I ditched the liner and bivy and wore my puffy coat and insulated snow pants and was much more comfortable than I was in the 4 bag setup.
condensation on my bag without a bivy to protect it was an issue though.

--For cold weather, Thermarest X-therm, down bag, double wall tent

--For that trip I was using my WM Versalite (10*) with a puffy on inside. In the 20* up range I use a well worn Valandre Mirage (23*)

--I don't usually use a bivy in cold weather. In my experience a bivy is a catch-22 in those conditions. Yes it can help protect your down from condensation falling from the air or bumped off of inner wall. The problem is that it also slows moisture movement from the inside out and traps moisture in the outer layers of down or bivy internals before it even hits the air. The moisture you're breathing out is gonna do what it's gonna do. The moisture generated from the rest of your body is another issue. Every time I've used a bivy in the cold there's a layer of ice on the inside of it that then melts back onto the bag when it warms up at all.

The best way to keep your down totally dry is a highly water resistant or waterproof outer layer, combined with a vapor barrier liner (VBL). For just a couple days out I've never found the need for a VBL to keep things functional. For guys who are out weeks on end in true cold, I think they pretty much all use VBL's on a regular basis. I have also found that even when it's well below freezing, if it's still and the sun is out, you can get some pretty impressive evaporation off of your bag by laying it across the top of a tent. That assumes you're there to do it and not out hunting/skiing/climbing, or whatever. When I do use a bivy it's a 7 oz. Rab bivy they don't make anymore, but it's Pertex Endurance. It's nearly waterproof but very breathable, and dries quickly.

--Cost effective is in the eye of the beholder. One of the best bang for the buck down bags is probably the REI Magma, but it's also not gonna have the same long term customer support or resale that a bag from WM, FF, or Valandre will have. One bag to rule them all is tough, though I did it with a Valandre Mirage for a long time in temps 10* through summer. Almost everyone is best served by two complimentary bag options if you use them all 4 seasons in places with full on 4 seasons. One -5* or 0* and one about 20* is a good match in my opinion. It's really hard to know what brands and models work best for each person since the cuts and fabrics differ so much.

The packability award will always go to high fill power down. Fabric matters a little but most all are gonna be a ripstop between 10d-25d. Windstopper will have a backer that adds some bulk, and also hurts breathability.

My two cents.

 

[Irrelevant]

What’s your sleep system consist of?
What bag do you use?
Do you sleep inside a bivy inside your tent to keep condensation off your bag?
If you had something along the lines of a WM bison or puma with the gore Tex shell would you be comfortable taking that on week long trips without a bivy to protect from condensation?
Is there a more cost effective or packable option than western mountaineering?
(buy once cry once/resale value and basically just have the ability to anything I want to do outdoors in the future)
Im not saying I’m buying one of these tomorrow, but I’m thinking I might start trying some fly in/out, ski/camp trips and I’d like to be able to save as much room in my pack as possible so I can carry it on the plane so it would be cool to upgrade from my current liner, 30 degree, 10 degree, bivy setup.
and that’s just too much shit to get tangled up in.
The last 2 nights of my recent trip I ditched the liner and bivy and wore my puffy coat and insulated snow pants and was much more comfortable than I was in the 4 bag setup.
condensation on my bag without a bivy to protect it was an issue though.
View attachment 170718

I sleep very cold- actually I am just very cold, pretty much all the time.

To sleep in conditions like Snowy did, I'd need at least two pads, and at least two sleeping bags, plus sleeping in my Down Coat and thick hat. I have a 30 deg and a 0 deg REI bags, both are old and both haven't held up great to hard use. I wish my 30 was a little wider to make it easier to slip the 0 inside of it, or vice versa, currently they're the same cut. I also prefer the double wall, which I feel helps with the condensation problem. If I could do it again, I'd go 20 deg and -5 or -10 deg on the bags, but mainly because I'm a cold blooded lizard.

One last thing, if you're going to be doing this long term then who gives a chit about resale value?

 

[DouglasR]

I sleep very cold- actually I am just very cold, pretty much all the time.

To sleep in conditions like Snowy did, I'd need at least two pads, and at least two sleeping bags, plus sleeping in my Down Coat and thick hat. I have a 30 deg and a 0 deg REI bags, both are old and both haven't held up great to hard use. I wish my 30 was a little wider to make it easier to slip the 0 inside of it, or vice versa, currently they're the same cut. I also prefer the double wall, which I feel helps with the condensation problem. If I could do it again, I'd go 20 deg and -5 or -10 deg on the bags, but mainly because I'm a cold blooded lizard.

One last thing, if you're going to be doing this long term then who gives a chit about resale value?

As far as resale value I guess I just thought it was the right thing to say whilst trying to justify spending $1000 on a sleeping bag.
Injury, loss of income or accidental pregnancy are the only reasons I could see myself losing interest in winter backpacking for at least the next 5, maybe 10 years.
hopefully more.

I currently have a versatile 10* and while I can definitely stay alive while sleeping with just the bag, 250 merino top and bottoms and a merino baklava at 6* it’s not like super cozy sleeping conditions.

But I’m pretty sure the versatile has my early season needs covered for as long as it will last.

For ski/camping “skamping” something along the lines of the -40* bison gws sounds awesome for the comfort factor. It would be nice to know that in damn near any situation you could get by with just that, some merino base layers and a face mask.
Right?
The downside of this is that it doesn’t look to pack down much smaller than my versatile/NF combo thus making it less ideal if I ever end up going on any kind of late season hunt or adventure where space and weight saving are key.

the puma would prob be a more versatile all around bag i guess for backpacking and hunting.
but man if you got caught out at bellow -20 that would suck but then again with my level of backcountry knowledge maybe I shouldn’t be out below -20.

Either way if I was going to go with the puma or bison I think I’d go with the GWS for the added water resistance based on the amount of condensation I was getting in my tent.

 

[Irrelevant]

As far as resale value I guess I just thought it was the right thing to say whilst trying to justify spending $1000 on a sleeping bag.

LMAO!

 

[Deleted member 16014]

The biggest benefit of good resale is that if it's not working quite right for your needs, you want to try another high end company, or there's a new technology you feel is worthwhile, you're out minimal funds. One of the big reasons I use Swarovski glass.

As far as temp ratings for a given set of conditions, it's very personal; I don't disagree with any of the above. No real way to know until you get out there with it. I had a Lynx -10* and I just about never used it. In a four season double wall you can get a good 10-20* bump from the outside temp and block 99% of the wind unless it's ripping.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I sleep very cold- actually I am just very cold, pretty much all the time.

To sleep in conditions like Snowy did, I'd need at least two pads, and at least two sleeping bags, plus sleeping in my Down Coat and thick hat. I have a 30 deg and a 0 deg REI bags, both are old and both haven't held up great to hard use. I wish my 30 was a little wider to make it easier to slip the 0 inside of it, or vice versa, currently they're the same cut. I also prefer the double wall, which I feel helps with the condensation problem. If I could do it again, I'd go 20 deg and -5 or -10 deg on the bags, but mainly because I'm a cold blooded lizard.

x2

 

[DouglasR]

The biggest benefit of good resale is that if it's not working quite right for your needs, you want to try another high end company, or there's a new technology you feel is worthwhile, you're out minimal funds. One of the big reasons I use Swarovski glass.

As far as temp ratings for a given set of conditions, it's very personal; I don't disagree with any of the above. No real way to know until you get out there with it. I had a Lynx -10* and I just about never used it. In a four season double wall you can get a good 10-20* bump from the outside temp and block 99% of the wind unless it's ripping.

If it’s not storming or blowing like heck do you sleep with the vents mostly open or closed?
I was using a nammatj 2 with the vents fully open with dead calm conditions and still getting a bit of condensation build up.
In the picture of my bag with the ice on it I had slept with the vents aprox 2/3rds closed and i felt like it led to more condensation.
It was my understanding that you want to leave the vents open as much as possible for this reason.
is that right?

 

[Deleted member 16014]

If it’s not storming or blowing like heck do you sleep with the vents mostly open or closed?
I was using a nammatj 2 with the vents fully open with dead calm conditions and still getting a bit of condensation build up.
In the picture of my bag with the ice on it I had slept with the vents aprox 2/3rds closed and i felt like it led to more condensation.
It was my understanding that you want to leave the vents open as much as possible for this reason.
is that right?

I leave mine pretty open when possible yes, especially with two people inside. Some designs are better at pushing moisture than others. I have a Kaitum, which has a similar vent layout to your Nammatj. IME it's a pretty good design for limiting condensation. I had an Allak for about 8 years and it was as good or slightly better on condensation. The Nallo wasn't as good with moving condensation, I think because the foot vent is like 3' higher than the opening in the fly and unless you have the fly rolled up at the bottom it doesn't create enough gradient or air movement. We're splitting hairs though...those are all incredible tents, as are many others.

 

[mxracer317]

I use the Big Agnes Cinnabar -20F and love it. YMMV.

 

[BrokenChicken]

I sleep very cold- actually I am just very cold, pretty much all the time.

To sleep in conditions like Snowy did, I'd need at least two pads, and at least two sleeping bags, plus sleeping in my Down Coat and thick hat. I have a 30 deg and a 0 deg REI bags, both are old and both haven't held up great to hard use. I wish my 30 was a little wider to make it easier to slip the 0 inside of it, or vice versa, currently they're the same cut. I also prefer the double wall, which I feel helps with the condensation problem. If I could do it again, I'd go 20 deg and -5 or -10 deg on the bags, but mainly because I'm a cold blooded lizard.

One last thing, if you're going to be doing this long term then who gives a chit about resale value?

some thought on your set up:
1. sleeping bags loose loft over the years. Down faster than Synthetic. Especially if when stored off-season you have them in their StuffSack. so that 30F bag from 5-10 years ago may now be closer to 40F, and that 0F is more like 10-15F. materials break down, no way around it. If you have the space, best thing to do when not using your sleeping bags is to hang them up so they can fully loft up. Also make sure you wash your bags occasionally, typically when i start seeing lots of grease marks around the hood area/feet from your body, that means Down is now clumpy and oily, it once again wont Loft up to its full potential. there are plenty of special Down wash products and i highly recommend you use them. it may breathe some life into your old bags. but ultimately if they are 7+ years old, accept the fact that they are no longer the temp rating they once were when new. Also: were those EN ratings or just a temp rating listed by manufacturer? entry price point bags typically dont get EN/ISO rating, so those may not even truly be 30F & 0F as you thought.

2. doubling up on sleeping bags works, but not to a full 100% extend you may be thinking. especially since you said your bags are tight and tough to slide inside each other. When doubled up your Inner bag now CANNOT fully LOFT up because it's being restricted/squeezes on the outside by your other bag, and when Down/Synthetic is not lofted to its full potential, once again it is not providing you with its full Temp rating benefit. **(think of it like wearing a DOWN Jacket under a fitted first layer, it wont loft and therefore wont fully work to its pottential)

3. If you still decide to go the Double up route, i would suggest trying to put your 0F on the outside instead of inside, at least it'll have room to Loft Up.

4. Sleeping Pads - if you're that cold of sleeper perhaps you do need 2 pads, but i will say that technology has come a long way, and as others have stated: a THermarest XTherm *(their 4 season R.value of 7ish) should be more than enough. people take these to sleep on snow and they're OK.

again: LOng Term storage in a stuff sack *(especially if you live in a humid environment) is probably the worst thing you can do for your sleeping bag. Most quality DOWN Bags often come with Storage Sack *(big MESH bag, similar in size to a Deer Game Bag) that allows it to breeze and has just enough room for DOWN to loft up somewhat and not be compressed like it would in a stuff sack.

hope this helps.