Home Electrical Help, Plus Poll!

[Pucky Freak]

I bought a multimeter to troubleshoot a couple fixtures and an outlet. Got those fixed, but experimenting on some of my other home outlets produced concerning results:

Volts format = Neutral-Hot/Ground-Neutral/Ground-Hot

Exterior E 120/20/90
Garage E 120/0/0
Garage E2 120/16/16
Garage W 120/28/93
Living Room W 120/3/3
Formal Room W 120/14/18
Bathroom 120/1/4
Exterior S 120/0/120
Flood lamp S 120/33/88
Flood lamp N 120/34/86

My understanding is all outlets are supposed to be 120/0/120, like my S exterior outlet. The E Garage I can ground, but all the other outlets I’m apprehensive to dive in. How urgent is this issue? Is it running up my electrical bill? Hurting my appliances? Safety risk? Any and all opinions welcome!

 

[GrantK]

I'm a little rusty, my electrical license expired in 2008, take anything I say with that huge grain of salt...
voltage at neutral/ground is unbalanced load between phases usually, not unusual to have some voltage there, 20-30V is quite a bit though? might be a floating neutral in the main panel?
looks like quite a few things are also lacking ground, or are kinda grounded? if everything has a ground wire it's probably as simple as making sure that connects all the way back to the panel, if you have a bunch of 2 wire system with no ground wire then it's a major project...

 

[seeth07]

I'm a little rusty, my electrical license expired in 2008, take anything I say with that huge grain of salt...
voltage at neutral/ground is unbalanced load between phases usually, not unusual to have some voltage there, 20-30V is quite a bit though? might be a floating neutral in the main panel?
looks like quite a few things are also lacking ground, or are kinda grounded? if everything has a ground wire it's probably as simple as making sure that connects all the way back to the panel, if you have a bunch of 2 wire system with no ground wire then it's a major project...

I was going to suggest the same thing, that it looks like some of this might be hooked up as just 2 wire with just a hot and a neutral. No ground wire.

 

[375H&H]

Call an electrician. It is too close to hunting season to risk starting a DIY project and not have it completed in time. I believe this is true for every day of the year.

 

[TimberBuck]

If your hot-to-neutral voltage is 120V, then you shouldn't be hurting any appliances or electric bill, as the hot-to-neutral is the voltage that a typical cord-n-plug appliance would see. However, I would say that yes it is definitely a safety issue and needs to be addressed in a timely manner.

As others mention, it's possible you could have instances of wiring methods installed as 2-wire and no ground, which you could check by taking off some coverplates and looking at the incoming wiring. If this is the case, then honestly the simplest and least expensive approach would be to replace these ungrounded outlets with GFCI outlets. This solution does not technically "ground" the problem outlets, like re-wiring would, but it does make them safer in the sense that the GFCI will trip if a ground-fault safety hazard occurred. If you do have proper wiring with ground wires, then that is good news, but the voltage readings are very odd and would require further troubleshooting to locate the problem(s), recommend by an electrician.

 

[seeth07]

If your hot-to-neutral voltage is 120V, then you shouldn't be hurting any appliances or electric bill, as the hot-to-neutral is the voltage that a typical cord-n-plug appliance would see. However, I would say that yes it is definitely a safety issue and needs to be addressed in a timely manner

You dont have that correct. A correct hot to neutral reading is 120v if working correctly. A correct hot to ground should also produce 120v. Neutral to ground should roughly read zero. It's possible that some voltage may be present, like my outlet at my work computer right now is reading 1.2v.

If your neutral to ground is reading 120v and your hot to ground is reading roughly zero, that means that your outlet is wired backwards and is going to mostly work just fine and safe. There are some sensitive devices such as a TV or computer charger that may get ruined.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

I bought a multimeter to troubleshoot a couple fixtures and an outlet. Got those fixed, but experimenting on some of my other home outlets produced concerning results:

Volts format = Neutral-Hot/Ground-Neutral/Ground-Hot

Exterior E 120/20/90
Garage E 120/0/0
Garage E2 120/16/16
Garage W 120/28/93
Living Room W 120/3/3
Formal Room W 120/14/18
Bathroom 120/1/4
Exterior S 120/0/120
Flood lamp S 120/33/88
Flood lamp N 120/34/86

My understanding is all outlets are supposed to be 120/0/120, like my S exterior outlet. The E Garage I can ground, but all the other outlets I’m apprehensive to dive in. How urgent is this issue? Is it running up my electrical bill? Hurting my appliances? Safety risk? Any and all opinions welcome!

Hmmm very interesting.

Ok so hot to neutral is where we want it. No issue there and that's what runs all appliances. So no risk to appliances there

Ground to neutral having any voltage isn't ideal. Taking an educated guess I'd say you may have a floating neutral that isn't properly grounded.

Ground to hot should be the same as hot to neutral since we use a solidly grounded system in USA homes. With that being said, safety risk is present for possible electrocution without more info.




Are you comfortable opening up the cover of your load center to see the bus? There will be live parts exposed so you may want to hit the breaker if you're worried.


We want to look at see what's going on with your neutral to ground bond.



Also, when was the home built? Or the electrical upgraded? Do you have gfci's in your breakers?

 

[TimberBuck]

You dont have that correct.

What isn't correct?

A correct hot to neutral reading is 120v if working correctly.

Agreed, that's what I said.

A correct hot to ground should also produce 120v.

Agreed.

Neutral to ground should roughly read zero. It's possible that some voltage may be present, like my outlet at my work computer right now is reading 1.2v.

Agreed.

If your neutral to ground is reading 120v and your hot to ground is reading roughly zero, that means that your outlet is wired backwards and is going to mostly work just fine and safe. There are some sensitive devices such as a TV or computer charger that may get ruined.

Good point, but it doesn't look like that's the case for the OP based on the readings.

 

[seeth07]

If your hot-to-neutral voltage is 120V, then you shouldn't be hurting any appliances or electric bill, as the hot-to-neutral is the voltage that a typical cord-n-plug appliance would see. However, I would say that yes it is definitely a safety issue and needs to be addressed in a timely manner.

That part is what was wrong. There is nothing unsafe and needing attention based on the first line of your comment. If his hot-to-neutral is reading 120V, he is good. And I mentioned how to check the ground.

 

[TimberBuck]

That part is what was wrong. There is nothing unsafe and needing attention based on the first line of your comment. If his hot-to-neutral is reading 120V, he is good. And I mentioned how to check the ground.

If you are getting improper voltage readings relative to ground, yes it is a safety issue and should definitely be addressed. With my first two sentences of my response I was trying to provide a brief answer to the handful of questions asked in OP's first post regarding urgency, electric bill, appliances, and safety. I did not mean to imply that the safety concern was due to the 120V hot-to-neutral reading. Its obviously due to the other readings relative to ground, figured that goes without saying, but I guess this is the internet...

 

[JDH]

I don't want to hijack the thread but it reminded me of something. How common is it to have a 3 way switch go bad? I've had 4 in the 8 years I've lived in my 20 year old house.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

I don't want to hijack the thread but it reminded me of something. How common is it to have a 3 way switch go bad? I've had 4 in the 8 years I've lived in my 20 year old house.

Not common at all in my experience.

What brand? Maybe it was a brand issue?

 

[Pucky Freak]

Also, when was the home built? Or the electrical upgraded? Do you have gfci's in your breakers?

1965.
There’s a newer Square D panel installed with “.com” on the label, so maybe late 90’s upgrade.
No GFCI in breaker box.

When I bought the place it was evident multiple previous owners had rednecked electrical. I swapped out several regular outlets where there should have been GFCI’s, I tore out some wire splices, installed numerous junction boxes where there weren’t any, installed covers where there were some missing, etc.

 

[Muleyfanatic]

Most likely no ground in cable; very possible they used outside jacket of bx (metal clad cable) as ground. This may not be visible as they may have taken home runs from panel to first box then used existing bx. The bx cable can not be making a low resistance path causing voltage leak from hot to ground.
The older style romex wire has a smaller ground that tends to be brittle and may be broke in places.
Easiest and safest is to install acrh/ground fault combination breakers (breakers can be a little pricey)
Only catch to this is to make sure each circuit has its own neutral. Neutral cannot be shared between 2 hot wires (circuit breakers)

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

1965.
There’s a newer Square D panel installed with “.com” on the label, so maybe late 90’s upgrade.
No GFCI in breaker box.

When I bought the place it was evident multiple previous owners had rednecked electrical. I swapped out several regular outlets where there should have been GFCI’s, I tore out some wire splices, installed numerous junction boxes where there weren’t any, installed covers where there were some missing, etc.

Hmmm, ya I'm guessing we have a grounding issue. Could be any number of things as pointed out.

My suggestion would be to buy a single ground fault breaker and see if when you swap it it is able to stay on. Nuisance tripping is likely and the breaker will be $50/ea. This will be a safety fix but not fixing the true issue at hand, more keeping the family safe until you can deep dive


Your risk, with the ground likely not present or partially missing if a plugged in device has a fault, hot wire gets exposed and touches the metal enclosure, when you touch it you're the likely path of least resistance. Normally it would be the ground wire, but in your case hard to say for sure.

Electrocution is rare at 120V but is possible in certain situations, primarily where water is present to negate our skins high resistance. Hence why gfci is required around water in a home.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Hmmm, ya I'm guessing we have a grounding issue. Could be any number of things as pointed out.

My suggestion would be to buy a single ground fault breaker and see if when you swap it it is able to stay on. Nuisance tripping is likely and the breaker will be $50/ea. This will be a safety fix but not fixing the true issue at hand, more keeping the family safe until you can deep dive


Your risk, with the ground likely not present or partially missing if a plugged in device has a fault, hot wire gets exposed and touches the metal enclosure, when you touch it you're the likely path of least resistance. Normally it would be the ground wire, but in your case hard to say for sure.

Electrocution is rare at 120V but is possible in certain situations, primarily where water is present to negate our skins high resistance. Hence why gfci is required around water in a home.

Nothing productive to add except I had a friend with a refrigerator in the garage and if you opened the door by the handle it would give you a zap, barefoot way worse. We’d see who could hold on the longest.

 

[mtmuley]

Nothing productive to add except I had a friend with a refrigerator in the garage and if you opened the door by the handle it would give you a zap, barefoot way worse. We’d see who could hold on the longest.

You probly licked 9 volt battery too didn't you? mtmuley

 

[Deleted member 28227]

You probly licked 9 volt battery too didn't you? mtmuley

100%

 

[seeth07]

Not having a ground isn't a huge deal as the neutral is the ground assuming that the neutral bar is actually grounded to the well ground. So step one I would do is look at the box, follow the ground/neutral wire and see if I can find the deep copper grounding rod.

 

[cgasner1]

I would call the power company and tell them you have voltage issues and have them check it under load behind the meter if they can. The issue may not even be your house but the line into it. Idk where your at but I always tell customers to call us before a electrician since we don’t charge