H.R. 8828 introduced -Leghold and conibear traps

[VikingsGuy]

I dislike the "ban" word VG. I know you dismiss the slippery slope theory, but I don't. Where I live, there is a movement to ban all trapping. I don't trap, nor bird hunt with dogs. Once the ball is rolling, it's hard to stop. mtmuley

I respect your view and we can agree to disagree.

More broadly, I don't see how the north american wildlife model works without hundreds of time, place and manner determinations - each resting on it's own "slope". My view is that in MN where state land supports hiking, walking, grouse hunting with dogs and trapping all in limited spaces in what is a fairly fully developed state, and when 30+ dogs are killed in 7 seasons (and likely 100s of injurred dogs), that we haven't got the time place and manner related to trapping set right for our state. Simple changes well short of banning are what is called for - but in the process of opposing the reasonable requests of fellow hunters, the trappers have so alienated a much bigger group of non-trapper hunters my guess is when the extremists come for all of trapping a bunch of outdoorsmen will quietly look the other way. Trappers need to understand that if they can't even play nice with other hunters, that there certainly is no future for their sport. But that seems all too common these days where absolutist positions destined to fail that foreclose the chances of broader support for a middle ground - both sides seem to like this game - I for one do not.

 

[mtmuley]

I respect your view and we can agree to disagree.
Trappers need to understand that if they can't even play nice with other hunters, that there certainly is no future for their sport.

And there it is. mtmuley

 

[jt13]

Banning steel jawed traps and conibears would be the death of all recreational trapping. I believe giving up trapping as a consolation prize or show of good faith to the anti-hunters would only be another slice in their death by a thousand cuts game plan. Trapping, hunting with hounds, bear hunting, coyote hunting, wolf hunting, etc are all vulnerable

 

[VikingsGuy]

And there it is. mtmuley

Yup - that's why we need to stick together - and that doesn't mean the smallest subset dictates to the bigger group the definition of "sticking together". Both sides have to choose to stick together on commonly accepted prinicples. Trapping was THE industry that first created MN and it did quite well for 200+ years before the bodygrip trap was introduced in the 60's (and not really used much here until late into the 70's). One can support trapping without supporting conabear traps - the leader of this whole issue here is a prominent trapper himself. This is a false choice called for by the most reticent. And choices have consequences. Following the wishes of the most vehement voices rarely serve anyone well but the ego of the vehement voice.

 

[mtmuley]

Like you said, should be handled within individual states. I would never support any ban on trapping here in Montana. mtmuley

 

[VikingsGuy]

Banning steel jawed traps and conibears would be the death of all recreational trapping. I believe giving up trapping as a consolation prize or show of good faith to the anti-hunters would only be another slice in their death by a thousand cuts game plan. Trapping, hunting with hounds, bear hunting, coyote hunting, wolf hunting, etc are all vulnerable

The audience of interest it is not the anti-hunters, as you point out, their end goal is clear, and it is not ours. Our audience needs to be the large middle swath of voters who don't know and frankly don't care - until they are convinced to care by countless pictures of dead family pets. There is no 2A for conabear trapping - it exists only so long as either (a) no one bothers to think about it and the status quo drifts forward or (b) a majority of voters either support it or don't care enough to join the voice of the anti-hunters. The deaths of these dogs is eroding both of these pre-conditions. That is why trapping will die in this state if we don't pivot. It will not be the anti-hunters that do it, it will be a broader population that learns to associate trapping with senseless and preventable harm - and that their friends and neigbors who hunt and fish come to agree with them. Don't undestimate how much, in MN at least, the thumbs up or down of a neighbor "who knows something" carries the outcome in public opinion.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Like you said, should be handled within individual states. I would never support any ban on trapping here in Montana. mtmuley

We agree - I have no opinion on how MT administers its local affairs.

 

[Shangobango]

I found this article: https://www.rivertowns.net/northlan...ting-dog-man-working-to-change-Minnesota-laws

It seems that the majority of the issue stems from baited sets using bodygrip traps.

The simple solution is to make it to where you can’t use bait in bodygrip sets on land.

The trapper that was quoted in the article was absolutely correct in stating that bodygrips are almost 100% ineffective for racoon and bobcat when set off of the ground, even when baited.

Maybe the fact I never use baited sets in conjunction with bodygrips is the reason I have never caught a dog in one while still being very effective on raccoon, otter, and bobcat.

Edited to add: It will be interesting to see how much outside support the trappers get in this being that Minnesota does not allow non-residents to trap.

 

[jt13]

The audience of interest it is not the anti-hunters, as you point out, their end goal is clear, and it is not ours. Our audience needs to be the large middle swath of voters who don't know and frankly don't care - until they are convinced to care by countless pictures of dead family pets. There is no 2A for conabear trapping - it exists only so long as either (a) no one bothers to think about it and the status quo drifts forward or (b) a majority of voters either support it or don't care enough to join the voice of the anti-hunters. The deaths of these dogs is eroding both of these pre-conditions. That is why trapping will die in this state if we don't pivot. It will not be the anti-hunters that do it, it will be a broader population that learns to associate trapping with senseless and preventable harm - and that their friends and neigbors who hunt and fish come to agree with them. Don't undestimate how much, in MN at least, the thumbs up or down of a neighbor "who knows something" carries the outcome in public opinion.

In PA we have lots of state regulations as it pertains to use of kill traps such as conibears and snares. Only in the watercourse, further than 150 yards from houses or buildings, restrictions on max jaw spread, established minimum trab depth on cubby style sets, and more. We do not have many problems with domestic animals in conibears here

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Many on here will certainly role their eyes at this and truthfully I hope they are correct. I have said for years we are our own worst enemy and will gladly sacrifice other outdoorsmen interests if it buys "our" interests time. It starts with trapping and will end with fly fishermen.

I don't have any relevant input for the topic. I just hate things like this.

 

[SAJ-99]

Many on here will certainly role their eyes at this and truthfully I hope they are correct. I have said for years we are our own worst enemy and will gladly sacrifice other outdoorsmen interests if it buys "our" interests time. It starts with trapping and will end with fly fishermen.

I don't have any relevant input for the topic. I just hate things like this.

You can be your own worst enemy by trying to defend every hill. In the end, no agreement on any subject can make EVERYONE happy. Hopefully that means we end up somewhere in the middle, but can't let the fringes dictate the pace or objective.

 

[BWALKER77]

I found this article: https://www.rivertowns.net/northlan...ting-dog-man-working-to-change-Minnesota-laws

It seems that the majority of the issue stems from baited sets using bodygrip traps.

The simple solution is to make it to where you can’t use bait in bodygrip sets on land.

The trapper that was quoted in the article was absolutely correct in stating that bodygrips are almost 100% ineffective for racoon and bobcat when set off of the ground, even when baited.

Maybe the fact I never use baited sets in conjunction with bodygrips is the reason I have never caught a dog in one while still being very effective on raccoon, otter, and bobcat.

Edited to add: It will be interesting to see how much outside support the trappers get in this being that Minnesota does not allow non-residents to trap.

Connibears are effective on Bobcats when used off the ground.

 

[mtmuley]

[QUOTE="SAJ-99, post: 3131470, member: but can't let the fringes dictate the pace or objective.
[/QUOTE]
Where's the "fringe"? mtmuley

 

[huronmtns]

I found this article: https://www.rivertowns.net/northlan...ting-dog-man-working-to-change-Minnesota-laws

It seems that the majority of the issue stems from baited sets using bodygrip traps.

The simple solution is to make it to where you can’t use bait in bodygrip sets on land.

The trapper that was quoted in the article was absolutely correct in stating that bodygrips are almost 100% ineffective for racoon and bobcat when set off of the ground, even when baited.

Maybe the fact I never use baited sets in conjunction with bodygrips is the reason I have never caught a dog in one while still being very effective on raccoon, otter, and bobcat.

Edited to add: It will be interesting to see how much outside support the trappers get in this being that Minnesota does not allow non-residents to trap.

I don't see how this is being said close to 100%. I've set mine for bobcats and racoons 6 - 7' up off the ground on a 6 to 8" diameter log leaning at 45-60 degrees. I build a .5" steel hardware mesh cloth folded up to make a cubby 24" long and 8" side to side and top to bottom with a closed in back. I use beaver for bait wired to the back of the cubby and use 220 traps. Putting vegetation on the cubby covers what it is and allows the smell and attractant. I have caught a lot of big bobcats and fisher on these sets and have never had to worry about a dog getting up that high. Using narrow leaning logs that have to be climbed, make the animal to have climbing claws to get at the trap and bait. Dogs really don't have climbing claws or grip capabilities to climb narrow steep leaning logs 5 foot or higher.

 

[Shangobango]

Connibears are effective on Bobcats when used off the ground.

I don't see how this is being said close to 100%. I've set mine for bobcats and racoons 6 - 7' up off the ground on a 6 to 8" diameter log leaning at 45-60 degrees. I build a .5" steel hardware mesh cloth folded up to make a cubby 24" long and 8" side to side and top to bottom with a closed in back. I use beaver for bait wired to the back of the cubby and use 220 traps. Putting vegetation on the cubby covers what it is and allows the smell and attractant. I have caught a lot of big bobcats and fisher on these sets and have never had to worry about a dog getting up that high. Using narrow leaning logs that have to be climbed, make the animal to have climbing claws to get at the trap and bait. Dogs really don't have climbing claws or grip capabilities to climb narrow steep leaning logs 5 foot or higher.

Ok granted. Let me rephrase:

Bodygrips set off of the ground are much less effective and efficient than bodygrips set on the ground in blind trail sets.

A trapper can put in 5 or more blind trail sets in the time it takes to make one leaning pole set. I would wager the catch rate is much higher in blind trail sets as well.

 

[huronmtns]

Ok granted. Let me rephrase:

Bodygrips set off of the ground are much less effective and efficient than bodygrips set on the ground in blind trail sets.

A trapper can put in 5 or more blind trail sets in the time it takes to make one leaning pole set. I would wager the catch rate is much higher in blind trail sets as well.

The country that we trap must be different. Where I trap, it is possible to get 20" of snow over night. Traps on the ground just get buried along with the attractant. Keeping the set high off the ground makes it reliable and easy to check at a distance. This saves walking time to and from the set. If you like looking for buried things that is where your time gets eaten up. In Michigan it is not legal to set conibers big enough to catch bobcat or fishers on the ground anyway. I also have not seen bobcat or fisher trails in my country. They have generalized movement areas. That is why attractants up high are important.

 

[Badlandcat]

So you walk up and open the snare.. again if you are in control of your dog there is very little danger.

What about the hound hunters. Most of the time the hounds are trailing lions or bobcats a couple miles away from the handler, in country that will take a few hours to get to them.

 

[Shangobango]

The country that we trap must be different. Where I trap, it is possible to get 20" of snow over night. Traps on the ground just get buried along with the attractant. Keeping the set high off the ground makes it reliable and easy to check at a distance. This saves walking time to and from the set. If you like looking for buried things that is where your time gets eaten up. In Michigan it is not legal to set conibers big enough to catch bobcat or fishers on the ground anyway. I also have not seen bobcat or fisher trails in my country. They have generalized movement areas. That is why attractants up high are important.

The snow factor makes perfect sense.

My point can be made simply by researching bobcat and raccoon trappers that put up significant numbers of catches in a season for the areas they operate in.

Those folks aren’t using many sets that are off the ground except for crossing logs, etc.

Generally significant numbers would be 100 cats and 500 raccoons. Differs per area.

I know guys personally that have caught over 200 cats in a season and other guys that routinely catch over 1500 coons. They aren’t making sets up off the ground.

 

[BWALKER77]

What about the hound hunters. Most of the time the hounds are trailing lions or bobcats a couple miles away from the handler, in country that will take a few hours to get to them.

Deer stops.

 

[BWALKER77]

Ok granted. Let me rephrase:

Bodygrips set off of the ground are much less effective and efficient than bodygrips set on the ground in blind trail sets.

A trapper can put in 5 or more blind trail sets in the time it takes to make one leaning pole set. I would wager the catch rate is much higher in blind trail sets as well.

Yea...that's not true.