Outlaw99
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Yeah it does. No Glock on my hip, just pj’s here
H.R. 8828 introduced -Leghold and conibear traps
- Thread starter Brandon270
- Start date
shoots-straight
Well-known member
So I'm posting the regulations for conibear traps and snares. Not sure some of you are picturing what the regulations say. This is Montana, but many states are the same.
Now that you have this in mind. For your dog to really be in danger of hurting themselves, they would have to enter a cubby, box, or barrel type set with a opening of around 7" x 8" or less and get in there at least 7 more inches to get to the trigger. Legally set of course.
Most bird dogs are to large to really want to enter that sized device. It can happen but it's not that big of a problem.
I've trapped a long time off and on. I'm on again this year, but who knows about next. I've not caught a dog in any of my sets. Period! I only use coni's big enough to kill your dog for beaver, and unless your dog has scuba gear he's safe.
There's lots of false statements that go on when trapping is discussed. Just a few days ago my SIL was talking with a Houndsman outfitter that claimed his dogs have been hung up in my snares many times, over the years. Sense I haven't set a snare, ever, in the hunting districts he claimed this to happen in, it's either BS or someone else has snares there. I did have leg holds out and never ran into another trapper in the areas in question. If you're competing with a user group you're (The Trapper) the bad guy just because trappers wear the brand. It's easy to rally the non hunters/trappers to your cause if it's concerning mans best friend, and more over if there's chance of your buddy being hurt. It's amazing we even have a porcupine left alive, knowing how many dogs have ended up with quills in their mouths, but that's another topic.
Do you need Trappers? Well I've read the responses, an the truth is you really don't. There are benefits to bird hunters though, and you've already worked that some. Do we need Hunters in general? You can answer that question yourselves. Some of you know how mother nature works, and the highs and lows of population cycles would make our wildlife a feast or famine highs and lows scenario. I trap regularly for many local friends. Predators are always in their chickens or other domestic animals and so they reach out when they need you. Even then I have not caught a dog. I have caught a cat or two, but never injured. If I didn't trap public lands I'd have no reason to have the traps and give a shit less. So they'd have to deal with those animals themselves or hire ADC people.
Understand that regular leg hold traps will not hurt your dogs foot so long as you release them properly. It's not going to cut off their toes. Almost all Fish and Game sites have video's how to get your dogs out of traps. Learn how to do that and most of the fear should pass. Snares in most cases will not hurt your dog either. IF the dog was running full tilt, and fought the snare, AND the snare didn't relax with the animal wasn't pulling, he would be ok until you found him and cut the snare, or pushed the stop or sure lock back.
So, Wolf trapping? Do we need it. Well less Elk and deer are a high probability in those areas. Wolf trappers have been successful enough to keep the wolf packs at smaller numbers, say 4 or 5 per pack, compared to non trapped areas like Flying D or Yellowstone Park, where a pack may be as many as 20 or more. Those packs are going to be pretty hard on game numbers there. Lower numbered packs seem more compatible with human hunting areas. If your dog get lost in wolf country, there's the possibility of him being on the wolf menu. I'd wager more hounds are killed by wolves, than by traps, but that's just a guess on my part. I think Trapping is a very important tool to manage an array of animals out there.
There are just as arrogant houndsman, and birdhunters percentage wise as there are trappers.
Consider Trapping just the same as you would a threatened or endangered species. Those that they use and call as "Indicator species". Those animals that tell you how well the environment is doing.
Trappers will be the first of the consumptive users to go. Once that happens, then Hound hunting will easily follow. Then archery, then muzzy, and so on. I think much of the human population look at bird hunting without to much emotion so it would be later down the road for you guys, but then more restrictions would be in place for sure. If your thinking is it doesn't effect me, you might want to think again.
My .02 cents worth. Keep pecking away.
Now that you have this in mind. For your dog to really be in danger of hurting themselves, they would have to enter a cubby, box, or barrel type set with a opening of around 7" x 8" or less and get in there at least 7 more inches to get to the trigger. Legally set of course.
Most bird dogs are to large to really want to enter that sized device. It can happen but it's not that big of a problem.
I've trapped a long time off and on. I'm on again this year, but who knows about next. I've not caught a dog in any of my sets. Period! I only use coni's big enough to kill your dog for beaver, and unless your dog has scuba gear he's safe.
There's lots of false statements that go on when trapping is discussed. Just a few days ago my SIL was talking with a Houndsman outfitter that claimed his dogs have been hung up in my snares many times, over the years. Sense I haven't set a snare, ever, in the hunting districts he claimed this to happen in, it's either BS or someone else has snares there. I did have leg holds out and never ran into another trapper in the areas in question. If you're competing with a user group you're (The Trapper) the bad guy just because trappers wear the brand. It's easy to rally the non hunters/trappers to your cause if it's concerning mans best friend, and more over if there's chance of your buddy being hurt. It's amazing we even have a porcupine left alive, knowing how many dogs have ended up with quills in their mouths, but that's another topic.
Do you need Trappers? Well I've read the responses, an the truth is you really don't. There are benefits to bird hunters though, and you've already worked that some. Do we need Hunters in general? You can answer that question yourselves. Some of you know how mother nature works, and the highs and lows of population cycles would make our wildlife a feast or famine highs and lows scenario. I trap regularly for many local friends. Predators are always in their chickens or other domestic animals and so they reach out when they need you. Even then I have not caught a dog. I have caught a cat or two, but never injured. If I didn't trap public lands I'd have no reason to have the traps and give a shit less. So they'd have to deal with those animals themselves or hire ADC people.
Understand that regular leg hold traps will not hurt your dogs foot so long as you release them properly. It's not going to cut off their toes. Almost all Fish and Game sites have video's how to get your dogs out of traps. Learn how to do that and most of the fear should pass. Snares in most cases will not hurt your dog either. IF the dog was running full tilt, and fought the snare, AND the snare didn't relax with the animal wasn't pulling, he would be ok until you found him and cut the snare, or pushed the stop or sure lock back.
So, Wolf trapping? Do we need it. Well less Elk and deer are a high probability in those areas. Wolf trappers have been successful enough to keep the wolf packs at smaller numbers, say 4 or 5 per pack, compared to non trapped areas like Flying D or Yellowstone Park, where a pack may be as many as 20 or more. Those packs are going to be pretty hard on game numbers there. Lower numbered packs seem more compatible with human hunting areas. If your dog get lost in wolf country, there's the possibility of him being on the wolf menu. I'd wager more hounds are killed by wolves, than by traps, but that's just a guess on my part. I think Trapping is a very important tool to manage an array of animals out there.
There are just as arrogant houndsman, and birdhunters percentage wise as there are trappers.
Consider Trapping just the same as you would a threatened or endangered species. Those that they use and call as "Indicator species". Those animals that tell you how well the environment is doing.
Trappers will be the first of the consumptive users to go. Once that happens, then Hound hunting will easily follow. Then archery, then muzzy, and so on. I think much of the human population look at bird hunting without to much emotion so it would be later down the road for you guys, but then more restrictions would be in place for sure. If your thinking is it doesn't effect me, you might want to think again.
My .02 cents worth. Keep pecking away.
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I'm begining to think the real issue is bird hunters trend toward being elitist douche bags that look down their nose at trappers. Much the same way bowhunters do toward rifle hunters. They can both FOAD and I haven't bought a trapping license in close to ten years.
TheJason
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@shoots-straight very well said. I hope folks like you serve as ambassadors within your ranks.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
Don’t see it at its extreme. The fact is trappers are a minority but being a trapper is a choice, so the casual use of the word “minority” might be offensive to another minority group. Someone mentioned everyone should “assume some risk”. Sure, I can agree, but the reality is that in this case 99% of the users are assuming a risk created by 1%. That is a tough battle to win, and we are disregarding the other people who don’t like the idea at its core and are against the idea full stop. Until you accept that, you certainly won’t make much progress and probably find yourself losing ground. I worry about the GFY approach because it might make people feel better for a second, it doesn’t help. I think some on this thread get that. Facts are your friend. @shootsstraight post is a good one.
shoots-straight
Well-known member
I've taken all my birds with my bow in the past half dozen years, so that makes me the elitist of the elite douche bags?
Shangobango
Well-known member
You make valid points.
I am not sure about how much choice I had in being a trapper though.
If I would have chose to not get out of bed and help my grandpa on the raccoon and mink line it would not have been good for my general health and well being
Nope. With a 16 gauge maybe... mtmuley
BuzzH
Well-known member
Some from 1985...Grouse season west of the divide ended Dec. 1.
Not really for you, as you knew it all already, but in case anyone else wants some facts.
1985 - Upland game birds and falconry hunting regulations, State of Montana - Biodiversity Heritage Library
The Biodiversity Heritage Library works collaboratively to make biodiversity literature openly available to the world as part of a global biodiversity community.
And some from 1984...
Season on grouse ended last day of general season, pheasant even earlier...east side stayed open until Dec. 2
1984 - Upland game birds and falconry hunting regulations, State of Montana - Biodiversity Heritage Library
The Biodiversity Heritage Library works collaboratively to make biodiversity literature openly available to the world as part of a global biodiversity community.
Meaning that since 1984 seasons have been extended a lot...
But, that's likely not the reason for any of the conflicts with trappers...of course.
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Shangobango
Well-known member
One more thing on this then I have got to call it quits.
When referencing minorities pertaining to the “ tyranny of the majority” I would think it would be fairly evident that the reference is not about race, religion, gender etc. and quite frankly if that offends some minority group, so be it.
Also to my knowledge there are no bobcat farms. Mink, fox, and raccoon dog, are the only furbearers I can think of that are farmed on any sort of large scale. I may be missing one.
A very good wild bobcat pelt can bring low four figures. Mid to high three figure prices aren’t at all unusual. There is a market there.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Should we kill every wolf because someone's dog might get killed by one when its running loose in the woods? That risk is being created by not even 1%.
Should we stop allowing cars on the road because rover might get turned into road pizza?
I reckon asking dog owners to have some responsibility in training and taking care of their dogs, you know, personal responsibility, is a bit too much to ask.
Again, I'm all about some compromising when BOTH sides want to engage in actually taking an active role in the process other than banning the other sides recreation.
I'd be way more inclined to ban unleashed dogs (talking pets here) on public land than trapping. Nothing better than listening to someone's shit-hauser howling while trying to fish, hike, or otherwise enjoy the outdoors. Or running over and rifling through your stuff, etc. Hate to break it to dog owners, I don't love your dogs as much as you do...
I just have to put up with it...
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SAJ-99
Well-known member
Those are poor comparisons.
The hardest thing is recognizing you are not in much of a position to negotiate, so demanding the other side give up more is a losing proposition. It’s like being a stranded on a deserted island and a boat comes by and asks if you need help. Your response is “what are you serving for dinner?”
SAJ-99
Well-known member
Shangobango
Well-known member
I said large scale. One farm is not large scale.
Your outright dismissal of other peoples rights based on how many of them there are is disturbing.
Your analogy is bogus as well.
Mallardsx2
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I am a trapper. I love it. Always have, always will.
Having said that, one guy I know in PA had his dog get its head snapped in a 220 on bare ground outside of a watercourse a couple weeks ago....no tag on the trap....public ground......Things like that dont help trappers.I have a picture, but I wont post it online because it doesnt help the trapping cause.
This dog was very lucky to be alive. Had it been positioned the other way it would have snuffed him out before he could get it off of him.
I know full well the dangers of conibear traps...I have used them for 25 years....IMHO conibears should be 1/2 way to fully submerged in my opinion. Most states that allow them require them to be submerged or partially submerged or be "In a watercourse" which, is pretty loose by definition IMHO.
I always have mine in the water partially or fully submerged because I know they typically kill without prejudice.
Strictly speaking about conibears here. Leg holds should always be allowed IMHO.
Having said that, one guy I know in PA had his dog get its head snapped in a 220 on bare ground outside of a watercourse a couple weeks ago....no tag on the trap....public ground......Things like that dont help trappers.I have a picture, but I wont post it online because it doesnt help the trapping cause.
This dog was very lucky to be alive. Had it been positioned the other way it would have snuffed him out before he could get it off of him.
I know full well the dangers of conibear traps...I have used them for 25 years....IMHO conibears should be 1/2 way to fully submerged in my opinion. Most states that allow them require them to be submerged or partially submerged or be "In a watercourse" which, is pretty loose by definition IMHO.
I always have mine in the water partially or fully submerged because I know they typically kill without prejudice.
Strictly speaking about conibears here. Leg holds should always be allowed IMHO.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
I wonder how the entrenched market hunters and land owners who killed big game with little to no regulation or enforcement felt about the new fangled North American Wildlife Conservation Model being pushed by "fancy pants hunters" that stole livelihoods, damaged tradition, and trampled on all forms of personal and property rights . . . . .
History can be told as a battle of the entrenched interests against new perspectives and approaches. Some of those new approaches may be good, and some may be bad, society has to make those choices. On any range of issues, those who believe the status quo should be maintained carry just as big a burden to support their views as still being the right choice as those who advocate for change, and history shows that merely arguing against new ideas/approaches merely based upon "how it used to be" rarely prevails in the long run.
As for tyranny of the majority, we have many many mechanisms to find balance here - constitutional rights (of which trapping is not one), senate make-up, etc. - but in the end democracy does require majority rule once those safeguards have been met. Not sure outside of the Bill of Rights that any small group should expect the larger group to be bullied into acquiessence, rather the small group either needs to stay under the radar or find middle ground through persuasion, collaboration and compromise. Claiming "rights" that don't exist, demanding unilateral fealty from other outdoorsman with out reciprocity of interest, personal attacks, and clinging to a low population density world that no longer exists in much of our country seem unlikely to be effective.
As for this particular issue, I appreciate those who have offered thoughts for middle ground - I definitely learned a few things.
History can be told as a battle of the entrenched interests against new perspectives and approaches. Some of those new approaches may be good, and some may be bad, society has to make those choices. On any range of issues, those who believe the status quo should be maintained carry just as big a burden to support their views as still being the right choice as those who advocate for change, and history shows that merely arguing against new ideas/approaches merely based upon "how it used to be" rarely prevails in the long run.
As for tyranny of the majority, we have many many mechanisms to find balance here - constitutional rights (of which trapping is not one), senate make-up, etc. - but in the end democracy does require majority rule once those safeguards have been met. Not sure outside of the Bill of Rights that any small group should expect the larger group to be bullied into acquiessence, rather the small group either needs to stay under the radar or find middle ground through persuasion, collaboration and compromise. Claiming "rights" that don't exist, demanding unilateral fealty from other outdoorsman with out reciprocity of interest, personal attacks, and clinging to a low population density world that no longer exists in much of our country seem unlikely to be effective.
As for this particular issue, I appreciate those who have offered thoughts for middle ground - I definitely learned a few things.
Shangobango
Well-known member
To say trapping has little regulation is a fallacy.
To say there is no right to trap, in my State there is.
I and others have proposed a lot of middle ground. It is just not the middle ground some want to see.
The “ my way or the highway” approach from either side is foolish.
To say there is no right to trap, in my State there is.
I and others have proposed a lot of middle ground. It is just not the middle ground some want to see.
The “ my way or the highway” approach from either side is foolish.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
It was more a tongue-in-cheek comment, but Google is your friend. There are quite a few bobcat farms. I don't like that they exist, but they do. Sorry, I don't know the definition of large or small when it comes to those.
Disturbing? In what way. Demanding the other side give up something in a negotiation just because you feel they should, but they don't have to, isn't a negotiation. Those "rights" can get changed by the passage of new legislation, which was the point of this thread.
TheJason
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Out of curiosity, does it protect just your right to trap, or does it specifically protect the means by which you can do so as well?
Shangobango
Well-known member
I’ll have to do research on the bobcat farms. You have piqued my inttetest. I do know that they weren’t much of a factor as far as numbers of pelts coming into the market as recently as 2017, the last year I actively followed fur markets. I have gotten a little out of touch since then, but knowing bobcats fairly well I would think they would be somewhat tough to raise in cages.
As far as negotiating, I guess my point is that just because you have a bigger stick than the other guy it is not always the right thing to do to hit him with it.
I don’t mean to come off as snippy, sometimes I am what I am though.
Have a great day.
