Great Burn Recommended Wilderness 🔥

[diamond hitch]

The trails went off the fire budget in the early 70s. At that point went under the recreation budget. That was followed by a decision that there was a much bigger demand for RV campgrounds. Since then they have been tearing out outhouses and abandoning campgrounds. Most of the trails going into the Great Burn from the Superior - St Regis side have been cut out by volunteers at best. I used to tell them which trails I would commit to cutting out but that only triggered where they would plan the next clearcut which were designed primarily to meet quotas while not being visable from any roads which they then closed those that would reveal their mess. All trails that provided access were obliterated by the logging further minimizing their obligation.

The forest service defends or buries their mistakes rather than solving them. Sort of like when a district ranger was caught pounding a local deputy for picking her up for another DUI. She was transfered to the regional office. Or the biologist who was caught planting lynx hair in Oregon for T&E species . She showed up in Butte just before I retired.

Sadly this is a diversion but more wilderness will not solve the problem of an agency where there are no standards, guidlines or purpose. It is time to kill it, create a new agency with the purpose of managing the resourses under their control without the personal bias of employees, political agenda of their management or just policies blowing in the wind. Defend this pile of crap if you wish but your faith and devotion is misplaced and could be better utilized.

 

[BuzzH]

Wow, you sound bitter...sour almost.

I worked for Ninemile RD from 1988-1990 and there was a pretty good experienced trail crew there that did most all the trail work in the Great Burn. I left there and spent 1991, 1992, and 1994 working for the Superior RD and they were definitely more timber oriented for sure. Spent 1993 in Sheridan and Ennis and I know the DR you're referring to, your story on that is one of many versions that I've heard...an its gotten bigger and better over time. Sort of like a fishing story.

Again, my experience marking and cruising timber at Ninemile and Superior doesn't jive with what you're claiming...at least not in the years I worked there. There was no way to hide timber sales that weren't visible from a road, I marked quite a few that were visible from I-90. I don't recall a lot of gated roads on either RD until after G.M. took the job at Ninemile.

Did lots of burning in the cutting units on both RD's, compartment inventory, fire, thinning, slashing B/D work, and contract inspection.

Lots of action back then...and lots of work being done, even if you don't approve of it.

 

[diamond hitch]

I fought with G. M. on the Ninemile. Watched him change the rules and refuse to follow his own regulations. Litterly making up things as far as rules. The only comparison was the clown on the Ennis district who was still pushing wilderness after retirement. I worked with Little Debbie at Sheridan and at Big Timber.

The mess they made out of the 7mile sale (Tamarack creek) brought new meaning to the word poor management. From 57 small clearcuts to every south face butchered. Where there weren't enough 33s to line the bunks of the trucks. I think you were at Superior at the time. I even got one of the timber beasts to admit that what they were doing there defied common sense and good management.

I've seen atrocities on the Helena that should have put management in jail. In the same period of time and up to recently the Deerlodge has drifted that way with the Pburg district leading the way.

I worked at the Plains, Missoula, and Trout Creek districts in the 70s and worked with the publc on every forest west of Lewistown. The BLM has its own problems but is for the most part worlds above the boys and girls in green.

I've known some fine people in the agency over the years including many of their DC staff. It is because of the Forest Service I came to follow my rule: If the government is the answer - the question was STUPID!! And I spent 43 years in government.

 

[BWALKER77]

I fought with G. M. on the Ninemile. Watched him change the rules and refuse to follow his own regulations. Litterly making up things as far as rules. The only comparison was the clown on the Ennis district who was still pushing wilderness after retirement. I worked with Little Debbie at Sheridan and at Big Timber.

The mess they made out of the 7mile sale (Tamarack creek) brought new meaning to the word poor management. From 57 small clearcuts to every south face butchered. Where there weren't enough 33s to line the bunks of the trucks. I think you were at Superior at the time. I even got one of the timber beasts to admit that what they were doing there defied common sense and good management.

I've seen atrocities on the Helena that should have put management in jail. In the same period of time and up to recently the Deerlodge has drifted that way with the Pburg district leading the way.

I worked at the Plains, Missoula, and Trout Creek districts in the 70s and worked with the publc on every forest west of Lewistown. The BLM has its own problems but is for the most part worlds above the boys and girls in green.

I've known some fine people in the agency over the years including many of their DC staff. It is because of the Forest Service I came to follow my rule: If the government is the answer - the question was STUPID!! And I spent 43 years in government.

The government seldom does anything right. I fail to see how this case is any different.

 

[Blacktailbc]

The trails in the wilderness areas I frequent are not maintained at all. If they are, it is volunteers. Blown downs every 15 ft. I talked to an outfitter in the trail a few years ago, he just started bringing a chainsaw. Had one in his pannier.

 

[diamond hitch]

Three years ago I requested the FS on the Lolo to put their gates where there was enough turn around for pickups and trailers so we could access the trails. I was informed that except for a very few all trails had been abandoned and there are no trails as far as they were concerned. I don't think they make distinction between wilderness and non. In the Butte area I think the continental divide trail is maintained by the back country horseman kinda. Last time I rode the section by the house it was blowed in pretty bad. The opportunity to maintain trails with a crosscut is less and less appealing. The FS is staffed lightly and trails are not in their plan. Ten years ago they they announced in the paper that they had no one qualified with a chainsaw and were clearing roads with primachord (explosives). In the land of cut your way in and cut your way out we can't afford more wilderness.

 

[BWALKER77]

Three years ago I requested the FS on the Lolo to put their gates where there was enough turn around for pickups and trailers so we could access the trails. I was informed that except for a very few all trails had been abandoned and there are no trails as far as they were concerned. I don't think they make distinction between wilderness and non. In the Butte area I think the continental divide trail is maintained by the back country horseman kinda. Last time I rode the section by the house it was blowed in pretty bad. The opportunity to maintain trails with a crosscut is less and less appealing. The FS is staffed lightly and trails are not in their plan. Ten years ago they they announced in the paper that they had no one qualified with a chainsaw and were clearing roads with primachord (explosives). In the land of cut your way in and cut your way out we can't afford more wilderness.

Only the government is stupid enough not to allow the use of a chainsaw in clearing trails in Wilderness. That's just one of the reasons I am sceptical on this.

 

[TheTone]

I’d be cool with seeing it remain roadless and free of motorized use but not wilderness if for no other reason that trail maintenance. I did about 50 miles on horse back a couple years ago in the area. Despite being told the trail was maintained it took us 11 hrs the first day to go 10 miles due to all the chainsaw work we did.

 

[theat]

Three years ago I requested the FS on the Lolo to put their gates where there was enough turn around for pickups and trailers so we could access the trails. I was informed that except for a very few all trails had been abandoned and there are no trails as far as they were concerned. I don't think they make distinction between wilderness and non. In the Butte area I think the continental divide trail is maintained by the back country horseman kinda. Last time I rode the section by the house it was blowed in pretty bad. The opportunity to maintain trails with a crosscut is less and less appealing. The FS is staffed lightly and trails are not in their plan. Ten years ago they they announced in the paper that they had no one qualified with a chainsaw and were clearing roads with primachord (explosives). In the land of cut your way in and cut your way out we can't afford more wilderness.

Weird...I hike on forest service trails in the Kootenai and Lolo all the time and also run into forest service trail crews every once in awhile. The trails in the Great Burn always seems to be clear.

 

[BuzzH]

Lots of contract trail crews as well...have run into a bunch in the Sawtooth, Frank Church, Selway/Bitterroot, etc.

Have a couple guys that work out of my FS office that clear a shit load of trail in the Greys River. For only a couple guys, they clear a lot of trail...worth every penny and good workers.

 

[Lasiocarpa]

Three years ago I requested the FS on the Lolo to put their gates where there was enough turn around for pickups and trailers so we could access the trails. I was informed that except for a very few all trails had been abandoned and there are no trails as far as they were concerned. I don't think they make distinction between wilderness and non. In the Butte area I think the continental divide trail is maintained by the back country horseman kinda. Last time I rode the section by the house it was blowed in pretty bad. The opportunity to maintain trails with a crosscut is less and less appealing. The FS is staffed lightly and trails are not in their plan. Ten years ago they they announced in the paper that they had no one qualified with a chainsaw and were clearing roads with primachord (explosives). In the land of cut your way in and cut your way out we can't afford more wilderness.

While the FS has definitely utilized explosives for hazard tree removal, I highly doubt if they are clearing roads with them. They have FAR more folks qualified on saws than they do explosives.

As to the original topic, I'll be commenting. I have hunted, fished, backpacked, and skied throughout that area on both sides of the state line. Of the places that I have personally been to that exhibit wilderness character, the Great Burn is on the top of the list.

 

[BuzzH]

While the FS has definitely utilized explosives for hazard tree removal, I highly doubt if they are clearing roads with them. They have FAR more folks qualified on saws than they do explosives.

As to the original topic, I'll be commenting. I have hunted, fished, backpacked, and skied throughout that area on both sides of the state line. Of the places that I have personally been to that exhibit wilderness character, the Great Burn is on the top of the list.

Yeah, I don't know where the no qualified sawyers thing comes from. I've moved on to the Research side of things with the FS and myself and a lot of others still have our saw certification.

I think someone did a little too much self medicating with the who-hit-john...

 

[diamond hitch]

Try GAO-13-618 . Report showing FS only capable of maintaining 37% of their trail system. Some districts better than others. Others not at all.

 

[Straight Arrow]

The OP is recommending supporting the Great Burn. So are you who seem to not support USFS saying, the USFS can't keep up with trail maintenance, so don't support the Great Burn or what? From your rationale, then it would follow to motorize existing Wilderness, then maybe eliminate the designation from some because of some "blowed in pretty bad trails".

I may be mistaken, but I think all on this thread do support Wilderness, so please support the Great Burn ... rather than continue to criticize in examples that trail maintenance is something that needs improving. Perhaps a rally to support increased trail maintenance would be more constructive.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

Not on topic, but I still don't understand why we NEED trails in wilderness areas? Or in any national forest?

 

[BuzzH]

Not on topic, but I still don't understand why we NEED trails in wilderness areas? Or in any national forest?

Lots of reasons for trails in both Wilderness and National Forests in general. Many are outlined in policy, laws, and acts.

The interpretation and extent is where things get out in the weeds...

 

[diamond hitch]

The Great Burn wsa is largely a primative area because of the 1910 fire that started at Avery Idaho and the snow put it out in Canada in December. Noting the inability to fight fires, a plan was put together in the following years to provide the neccessary access to provide a fighting chance. During the depression an extensive program called the civilion conservation corps was established to build an extensive system of trails and lookouts to minimize the chance of that happening again. Much of the great Burn area burned so hot it has yet to be revegetated with anything but brush. There are a lot of publications on it.

The trail system between Montana and Idaho and throughout the region provide the trails (some through rock), some bridges, and some through dense forests. From time to time they need to be sawed out, retreaded, and occasionaly rebuilt. They were built to specs that included width of tread, width of trail area and grade. In all of the wilderness areas I have been in and a lot of the northern forests, the wilderness highways are the trail system. Without it you simply can't get there from here - let alone back without it.

People tend to cluster around the edges which is tough on the landscape. The trails allow for dispersed recreation and the wilderness opportunity. A benefit over the years has been the signage that has allowed you to figure out where you are and how far it is to the next place or out.

If you have spent much time in the wilderness, a trail is an extremely welcome sight after 8 or 9 hrs of bushwhacking.

 

[FI460]

The Great Burn wsa is largely a primative area because of the 1910 fire that started at Avery Idaho and the snow put it out in Canada in December. Noting the inability to fight fires, a plan was put together in the following years to provide the neccessary access to provide a fighting chance. During the depression an extensive program called the civilion conservation corps was established to build an extensive system of trails and lookouts to minimize the chance of that happening again. Much of the great Burn area burned so hot it has yet to be revegetated with anything but brush. There are a lot of publications on it.

The trail system between Montana and Idaho and throughout the region provide the trails (some through rock), some bridges, and some through dense forests. From time to time they need to be sawed out, retreaded, and occasionaly rebuilt. They were built to specs that included width of tread, width of trail area and grade. In all of the wilderness areas I have been in and a lot of the northern forests, the wilderness highways are the trail system. Without it you simply can't get there from here - let alone back without it.

People tend to cluster around the edges which is tough on the landscape. The trails allow for dispersed recreation and the wilderness opportunity. A benefit over the years has been the signage that has allowed you to figure out where you are and how far it is to the next place or out.

If you have spent much time in the wilderness, a trail is an extremely welcome sight after 8 or 9 hrs of bushwhacking.

Worth adding that Pinchot had pushed hard for funding to implement the trails and fire prevention infrastructure at the foundation of the Forest Service, and was denied by Congress until the Great Burn.

I don't feel that this should be a binary argument here. We should be able to have well maintained wilderness, both big W and little w. We just have to get the powers on board with funding our priorities.

 

[Blacktailbc]

Not on topic, but I still don't understand why we NEED trails in wilderness areas? Or in any national forest?

You NEED trails to get to your destination in most wilderness areas. Hiking cross country through miles of brush fields just isn’t feasible.
Why do we NEED roads?
Why not just pull the culverts & hike from the highway?

 

[diamond hitch]

There are a number of books on the CCCs and the development of the trails in that area mainly from the Idaho side. One I liked the best was that one of the camps was largely from Appalachia and when they issued them boots they thought they were for dancing and getting them to wear boots to work was a real challenge.