Grazing fees, the economics of elk and cattle

[BigHornRam]

Beyond calling in specific bad actors to the local agency, what can orgs and individuals do?

What did you think about my negative AMU? I suppose buying gps collars? Education?

This documentary was critically acclaimed by the New York times and such.

Org I've been involved with for many years raised a large portion of the dollars to buy this allotment out, over our concern for the bighorn sheep and other wildlife in the area. Multiple other orgs also contributed to the buyout. Some places are best not grazed by livestock, and this was one prioty place. It was money well spent.

Deal takes sheep off grazing allotment

BILLINGS, Mont. - Domestic sheep don't mix well with grizzly bears and wolves.

trib.com

 

[406dn]

As a person who willingly pays the bill for the forage for two horses, I find the grazing fees charged for public land grazing to be pretty laughable.

It is a longstanding problem, going back, many decades. Historically, ranchers have enjoyed political clout far out of proportion to their numbers. I do not see that changing.

Maybe ten years ago, I drew a cow moose tag in SW Montana. I won't name the drainage, but to say it was a moonscape, is not an overstatement. The entire drainage would be a wildlife paradise, especially winter range with its abundance of open south facing slopes.

It was pretty impressive how little grass the cattle had missed. If you can picture a prairie dog town... replace the den holes with cow pies. You could see them everywhere.

 

[Forkyfinder]

View attachment 315797

Start a thread about public land filming fee price and enforcement

 

[sclancy27]

Start a thread about public land filming fee price and enforcement

Yea, don't get me started here

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Start a thread about public land filming fee price and enforcement

Easy...fine every person on the internet except @bigfin he is the only person that actually shows the process of how he gets his permits.

 

[Elkmagnet]

This documentary was critically acclaimed by the New York times and such.

Org I've been involved with for many years raised a large portion of the dollars to buy this allotment out, over our concern for the bighorn sheep and other wildlife in the area. Multiple other orgs also contributed to the buyout. Some places are best not grazed by livestock, and this was one prioty place. It was money well spent.

Deal takes sheep off grazing allotment

BILLINGS, Mont. - Domestic sheep don't mix well with grizzly bears and wolves.

trib.com

Where Can a guy watch the whole thing?

 

[cgasner1]

Well this thread kinda caught fire while I was out of service swimming on peck today. Had way to much fireball for it tonight

 

[Oak]

Just returned from another southern AZ winter where I wandered the Coronado NF for two months with bow or shotgun in hand nearly every day. The poor monsoon season meant little forage production but the cows were out in force. Overgrazing was the worst I have seen in my 24 winters there. My hunting buddies were also appalled. In addition to no residual cover, introduced lovegrass and overgrazing of desirable forage grasses has greatly diminished capacity over huge acreages. Unfortunately the predictions for the future are that good monsoons will be less frequent and the southwest landscapes will be hotter. The biggest ranches are being bought by billionaires, but they are still able to feed at the public trough. Past and ongoing efforts by dedicated hunter to better balance grazing with other resources has not been fruitful.

Here in Montana public land grazing is certainly a mixed bag, but it is far too common to see riparian areas along with streambanks badly damaged. Don't need a map to identify State land as it is usually recognizable by the slicked off lands.

In Idaho where I hunt upland birds, inappropriate public land grazing has fostered the enormous expansion of cheatgrass, medusahead rye, and other invasives that harm both livestock grazing capacity as well as wildlife habitat. Some of these changes are largely irreversible.

The reality is that the livestock industry is firmly in political power at both the State and Federal levels across the West. Last figures I saw were about 3X more public grazing expenditures than revenue, and that seems too low. Public land range management is poorly funded. With their power at the State level (eg legislatures), fish and wildlife agencies tread very lightly or don't touch the subject. Status quo management by agencies is much easier than change. Even mainstream conservation/wildlife groups are hesitant to be involved. Many outfitters benefit from their relationships with ranchers and won't get involved. So IMO, the public's wildlife and fish will just have to suck it up for the foreseeable future.

I hunted the Coronado NF in December 2022. I encountered the following situation. It is FS on both sides of the fence, but the fence is an allotment boundary.


I sent these photos to a friend at another org who I knew would pursue the issue. This is the response I received from them after they did.

 

[BigHornRam]

Where Can a guy watch the whole thing?

My wife's boss rented it on Netflix and loaned it to us before returning it. There is a link on YouTube to watch it in it's entirety, but may require you to pay.

 

[TheTone]

Easy...fine every person on the internet except @bigfin he is the only person that actually shows the process of how he gets his permits.

Hard to show the process if you don’t get them in the first place

 

[Forkyfinder]

Hard to show the process if you don’t get them in the first place

Call em in?

Near as i can tell, thats the single best thing an individual can do about either situation.

 

[more_cowbell]

I hunted the Coronado NF in December 2022. I encountered the following situation. It is FS on both sides of the fence, but the fence is an allotment boundary.


I sent these photos to a friend at another org who I knew would pursue the issue. This is the response I received from them after they did.

Yikes if I didn't know I would've guessed it was sheep grazed

 

[npaden]

I'm glad I read this thread. I hadn't even thought about the possibility of using a virtual fence to run some cattle on my place in Colorado.

I've looked at a perimeter fence and was a bit put off by the estimated $100Kish price tag. I have some natural barriers that would be pretty effective fences I think and combined with the virtual fence idea with a few physical fences in areas where it would be a big no go for the cows to keep them from wandering off I think I could drop that number in half probably.

Wasn't planning on running a bunch of cows so this would be a possible option for sure. I would think the cost to run the collars annually would be less than what I would save getting a few of the "subdivision" parcels reclassified as agriculture for property taxes.

I would 100% be trying to use the cattle to improve the habitat, not degrade it.

Would be pretty darn cool to pull up an app on my phone and see where the cows were at.

I had some cows show up last winter on my place for a while and if I remember correctly it seems that the law in Colorado is for me to fence the cows out not the other way around. I guess I could let them wander around on the neighboring properties that aren't fenced while I was at it!

 

[sneakypete]

Our state grazing fee per year isn’t cheap, especially when we don’t run any livestock! Around $ 1300 per year. In Montana.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Our state grazing fee per year isn’t cheap, especially when we don’t run any livestock! Around $ 1300 per year. In Montana.

State land? How much per AUM?

 

[Salmonchaser]

I'm glad I read this thread. I hadn't even thought about the possibility of using a virtual fence to run some cattle on my place in Colorado.

I've looked at a perimeter fence and was a bit put off by the estimated $100Kish price tag. I have some natural barriers that would be pretty effective fences I think and combined with the virtual fence idea with a few physical fences in areas where it would be a big no go for the cows to keep them from wandering off I think I could drop that number in half probably.

Wasn't planning on running a bunch of cows so this would be a possible option for sure. I would think the cost to run the collars annually would be less than what I would save getting a few of the "subdivision" parcels reclassified as agriculture for property taxes.

I would 100% be trying to use the cattle to improve the habitat, not degrade it.

Would be pretty darn cool to pull up an app on my phone and see where the cows were at.

I had some cows show up last winter on my place for a while and if I remember correctly it seems that the law in Colorado is for me to fence the cows out not the other way around. I guess I could let them wander around on the neighboring properties that aren't fenced while I was at it!

A cowboy I know wrote a book; Grass grows green in the spring, Tony Maulberg. Be a good read given what you’re trying to do.
In Oregon the open range law varies county to county. If your county or that portion of the county you live in is classified as open range it is up to you to fence someone else’s stock out. It is also your fault if happen to run over someone’s black angus standing in the middle of the highway on a dark rainy night on open range.

 

[tormenter]

A cowboy I know wrote a book; Grass grows green in the spring, Tony Maulberg. Be a good read given what you’re trying to do.
In Oregon the open range law varies county to county. If your county or that portion of the county you live in is classified as open range it is up to you to fence someone else’s stock out. It is also your fault if happen to run over someone’s black angus standing in the middle of the highway on a dark rainy night on open range.

I always hated some of these outdated laws. Think about it, you are reasponsible for your vehicle damage AND you get to buy the rancher a new animal.

In Colorado we have a highway going over Gore Pass and I can't count the times I have seen cattle sleeping on the highway or right next to the road. If I ever hit one and could still drive my truck, you wouldn't finding me at the scene of the accident.

By the way - I raise cattle too and if my steers get out my pastue and you hit one - you won't get a bill from me.

 

[Salmonchaser]

I agree, I only run 1/2 to a dozen head, depends on the spring. Couple horses as well. Move them, frequently, target an early kill date for the ones we keep for family, send the others to auction. My fences are high and tight, been years since I had any escape. Neighbor up the road is constantly chasing his.
Grass is mowed down pretty tight by September. Get a good green up before it gets cold, starting to grow like crazy now.

 

[sneakypete]

State land? How much per AUM?

State land, not sure on the AUM. I have the paperwork filed away.

 

[Ben Lamb]

State land, not sure on the AUM. I have the paperwork filed away.

Current MT DNRC lease per aum is around $16-17.