Good Neighbor: Elk Management in Montana

[Lota lota]

A little common sense would go a long ways……

I agree...not many people "starting" cattle ranches in the heart of elk and sheep country and then bitching about it while capitalizing on outfitting hunts for them.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Has there been any discussion about BMA preference to isolated to local people?

If i was a landowner in the county - id feel a lot better about someone i know of, or know, or know who lives in my community accessing land i own.

Sure doesnt do me much good living where i do, but it seems like thatd be a healthy way to handle some of the concerns about amateur hour cow killing and respect for land.

 

[Treeshark]

Has there been any discussion about BMA preference to isolated to local people?

How are BMA payments funded?

But I think you are actually onto the end goal, you just got off the bus one stop too soon.

National>state>local>… individual.

 

[Forkyfinder]

How are BMA payments funded?

You and i both know the answer, especially since its in the thread - so why ask?

I live in the worst county in the state for what i was suggesting. So i dont quite see how its different for me than you - other than you saved a bunch of money not living here all year.

 

[Treeshark]

You are free to live wherever you want, my man.

I am not trying to be critical- you are asking the right question in my opinion. My point is that there is a way to achieve exactly what you are proposing- how can landowners receive money, yet still retain control of who is hunting their land? Other states have solved for that, and Montana soon will too.

 

[Forkyfinder]

You are free to live wherever you want, my man.

I am not trying to be critical- you are asking the right question in my opinion. My point is that there is a way to achieve exactly what you are proposing- how can landowners receive money, yet still retain control of who is hunting their land? Other states have solved for that, and Montana soon will too.

That already exists. Its called outfitting.

Its hilarious/fascinating to me that you advocate for a system that will price you out even more - all while complaining about the price of tags. I guess living somewhere elkless would be cheesey, ill try to understand.

You are either too poor to buy the transferred tags, or dont want them yourself?

I think letting people hunt from their community might mean more benefits and less problems - and could incentivize bringing back some of the landowner/hunter relationships.

If the original premise of your question is wondering if its okay for me to use some your/my money to provide someone access - yes. Happens all the time with type 2 (corrupt and non corrupt). Dont you think its a little bit selfish to not be okay with that?

 

[Treeshark]

So you basically want nonresidents to essentially pay for hunting leases for locals only?

Holy smokes dude, the welfare entitlement of your post is unreal. Is that a normal sentiment where you live?!

I am surprised to see you even put that post out there.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Holy smokes dude, the welfare entitlement of your post is unreal. Is that a normal sentiment where you live?!

I can’t believe you put that post out there. Wow.

Welfare is to be okay with a small amount of the tag i buys goes to ensuring access - even if its not for me?

Entitelement mindset would be driving across the country to a state you dont live and thinking you deserve a tag cause you paid $2.26 in taxes for federal land.

 

[Treeshark]

Against all odds, your business tax advice somehow makes more sense than your take on this issue

I think it’s pretty clear that we are quite a ways apart on this one, all good.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Against all odds, your business tax advice somehow makes more sense than your take on this issue

I think it’s pretty clear that we are quite a ways apart on this one, all good.

Do you know what type 2 bmas are?

 

[Treeshark]

Yes.

Those are the ones that @The Hedgehog talks about not being able to get permission for (because the landowners give some bogus excuse about how it’s already being hunted).

Those sound more like a problem than a solution to me.

 

[antlerradar]

Has there been any discussion about BMA preference to isolated to local people?

If i was a landowner in the county - id feel a lot better about someone i know of, or know, or know who lives in my community accessing land i own.

Sure doesnt do me much good living where i do, but it seems like thatd be a healthy way to handle some of the concerns about amateur hour cow killing.

Maybe, maybe not. I live in a very small community and there are some locals that I do not want hunting under any circumstances. Might be better to take your chances on hunters you don't know than to be guaranteed F ed by some of the ones you do know.
Sadly for hunters one of the best ways to separate the out the undesirable is to charge an access fee.
I would propose that for BM, any game violation gets you a five year ban and up to a lifetime ban on more serious violations.

 

[Treeshark]

I would propose that for BM, any game violation gets you a five year ban and up to a lifetime ban on more serious violations.

Great call on that point.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Maybe, maybe not. I live in a very small community and there are some locals that I do not want hunting under any circumstances. Might be better to take your chances on hunters you don't know than to be guaranteed F ed by some of the ones you do know.
Sadly for hunters one of the best ways to separate the out the undesirable is to charge an access fee.
I would propose that for BM, any game violation gets you a five year ban and up to a lifetime ban on more serious violations.

Thats a bummer.

I know part of the problem is - beyond a type II which can be expensive in terms of time investment - theres no way to limit the amount of people. As more people hunt and hunt bmas, and acreage enrolled decreases, they get more pressure and the enrollment incentives get worse.

I wish there were a healthy/easy way to limit the amount of access in a streamlined way so the places arent over ran and can stay in BMA.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Thats a bummer.

I know part of the problem is - beyond a type II which can be expensive in terms of time investment - theres no way to limit the amount of people. As more people hunt and hunt bmas, and acreage enrolled decreases, they get more pressure and the enrollment incentives get worse.

I wish there were a healthy/easy way to limit the amount of access in a streamlined way so the places arent over ran and can stay in BMA.

Type I BMA's can have a daily hunter limit. I've hunted some that allow for only 6 hunters per day (upland).

 

[mukbowhunt]

A well done film and good message.

I took from his comment that having public hunters come and shoot 2-3 cow elk in a weekend (assuming the public hunter who shows up is capable of that) is not worth the headache of a scared herd of elk knocking down fences when they run off. I can see that point. If I was a landowner, I might accept the burden of 2-3 extra elk feeding on my place, maybe even 10-20 extra cow elk, if the alternative required me to repair or replace a bunch of fence every Sunday.

I'll expand on that reality, based on my interaction with CPA clients who do allow some cow hunting to the public. I am surprised at how many examples they have of hunters who cannot stalk an elk, cannot hit an elk with a rifle, and don't know how to take care of an elk when they get one down. The average Hunt Talker is not your average dude who shows up to shoot a cow elk. That might sound judgmental and it's not meant to be. It's just that most of us have a ton of elk hunting experience and if you put us in a pasture with a herd of elk and a cow tag, there's likely to be a dead cow elk with one empty shell case. We've done it a lot, so it seems pretty doable to us. Many of the folks who show up for these cow hunts don't have much experience and that can create problems that landowners would rather not have to deal with.

The landowner I know who allows the most cow elk hunting of any landowner in Region 3 now has his employees guide the cow elk hunters, for free. It's cheaper and easier than the messes they were trying to clean up when they sent strangers out there unassisted. They do it to be a good neighbor and to try redistribute elk to the adjacent public lands, yet it comes at a cost to them, whether they do/don't help these cow hunters.

That's a bit of a tangent, yet a consideration as to why landowners are willing to deal with some elk problems, which some think is intentional "harboring," a term not well suited to most situations of why elk accumulate on low-pressure private lands adjacent to high-pressure public lands. Once they accept that the presence of elk is easier than the presence of public hunters, it's a pretty easy financial decision to add a few bull hunts or leasing the hunting to a hunt club or an outfitter.

I wish it was different. Yet, that's a reality that needs to be accepted as part of the solutions.

Great perspective.

I have had an idea for awhile for an organization that would vet hunters ahead of time for skill/availability. The landowners who need help with problem elk could contact the organization and get a list of individuals qualified.

I know the department provides this in a couple different ways already but my idea would be a deeper vet. Overtime long term relationships could be established.

The org would have to be nonprofit because this isn’t a money making idea but definitely in the name of conservation.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Great perspective.

I have had an idea for awhile for an organization that would vet hunters ahead of time for skill/availability. The landowners who need help with problem elk could contact the organization and get a list of individuals qualified.

I know the department provides this in a couple different ways already but my idea would be a deeper vet. Overtime long term relationships could be established.

The org would have to be nonprofit because this isn’t a money making idea but definitely in the name of conservation.

Some of this is happening already between the RCFWA's Next Level Hunting Course and the Master Hunter program.

These are solid concepts, ready to be expanded. The key is to maintain impartiality and ensure that the training necessary for the vetting is free or as close to it as possible.