Gearing up for 2008
- Thread starter wyomingtim
- Start date
noharleyyet
Well-known member
...poll it peckerwood.
Seriously, you have made some very good points on this thread. Who wrote them for you?
This will be happen and I think lead to more leasing of private ground. One of the best ways to help curb the leasing is to take away the outfitter garunteed tags, but I doubt that would ever happen. It's sad in a whole lot of ways, but I think this is what will happen in the future to states/areas with lots of private ground and good hunting... Only thing I can see slowing it down is the baby boomers getting to old to hunt or dying as they are, IMO, the largest driving force behind this. They are at the age where they have the time/money to be able to benefit from this.
Mini Moose
New member
Blah Blah Blah you guys can argue as long as you want but to get back on topic, i am going to try to get myself a kitty this year, in idaho, with a general tag
In MT, our guaranteed outfitter tags will come up for renewal in the legislature in two or three years. I have already been to meetings where the MOGA lobbyists were present and "fired a few shots across the bow."
They hate my ass anyhow, so if someone is going to piss them off by trying to get rid of their government handouts, it may as well be me.
When that time comes, I hope some resident hunters get behind it and kill this whole mess. We now see what a mistake it was from the start.
Like I said in my previous post, I understand all that private property stands for, and think landowners can do what ever they want with their land - allow hunting, deny hunting, lease to outfitters, whatever. They own it, they control it.
But, nothing says that state governments are beholden to the 465 outfitters who have decided to build a business model around a public asset - wildlife.
As beneficiaries of the public trust, we can demand our trustees to manage our trust assets to the benefit of the residents, not primarily for the financial benefit of a few.
Asking the public trustees to exercise their power over the public asset they control, in no way affects the ability of a private property owner to exercise the property rights that come with his land.
Public trustees managing their asset - public wildlife, is no different than a private landowner exercising/managing his property rights.
Now, are residents willing to step up and pay for Block Management? That is what killed the effort to remove these welfare tags on the last go round.
They hate my ass anyhow, so if someone is going to piss them off by trying to get rid of their government handouts, it may as well be me.
When that time comes, I hope some resident hunters get behind it and kill this whole mess. We now see what a mistake it was from the start.
Like I said in my previous post, I understand all that private property stands for, and think landowners can do what ever they want with their land - allow hunting, deny hunting, lease to outfitters, whatever. They own it, they control it.
But, nothing says that state governments are beholden to the 465 outfitters who have decided to build a business model around a public asset - wildlife.
As beneficiaries of the public trust, we can demand our trustees to manage our trust assets to the benefit of the residents, not primarily for the financial benefit of a few.
Asking the public trustees to exercise their power over the public asset they control, in no way affects the ability of a private property owner to exercise the property rights that come with his land.
Public trustees managing their asset - public wildlife, is no different than a private landowner exercising/managing his property rights.
Now, are residents willing to step up and pay for Block Management?
That is what killed the effort to remove these welfare tags on the last go round.In MT, our guaranteed outfitter tags will come up for renewal in the legislature in two or three years. I have already been to meetings where the MOGA lobbyists were present and "fired a few shots across the bow."
They hate my ass anyhow, so if someone is going to piss them off by trying to get rid of their government handouts, it may as well be me.
When that time comes, I hope some resident hunters get behind it and kill this whole mess. We now see what a mistake it was from the start.
Have i told you lately that i love you??
Get at them bro! been saying it for years that outfitters and wealth tags are ruining our sport for the common man. Never had a problem with outfitters as long as the clients tag drawing was the same as everyone else's...............Now, are residents willing to step up and pay for Block Management?
That WILL be interesting. I agree that getting rid of guaranteed outfitter tags is the way to go but, it will be next to impossible. If the average MT resident has to pay lets say $50.00 for an elk tag (which is still too cheap IMO) to cover the BMA bill, gauranteed tags will stay. Maybe I'm too pessimistic....
BuzzH
Well-known member
The solution to the BMP is so easy its laughable.
For starters, ask for donations to the BMP when people buy licenses like they do in Wyoming.
If not that, just tack on an additional $20, or whatever it would take, onto NR license fees. Whats another $20 or even $50 when you're already shelling out $643. Plus, I'd gladly spent an extra $50 if I had a crack at all the NR licenses.
Bottom line is that most Montana dont give a shit either way when it comes to outfitter tags. Their ox isnt getting gored and as long as the MTG&OA promises to pay for the BMP, Montanans just view it as something they dont have to pay for. Their cheapness is costing them plenty though.
Its as simple as that.
The sad part of the whole deal is that MT's resident hunters are actually getting hammered pretty hard because of the guaranteed tags (increased leasing) and have been since day one.
Complacency by 99% of the resident hunters in Montana will be what ultimately keeps the welfare outfitters in business.
I bet if an honest 10% of the Montana Residents went to meetings and demanded change, along with workable solutions...things would change.
But, its easier to sit on the couch and eat tater chips rather than do something constructive.
For starters, ask for donations to the BMP when people buy licenses like they do in Wyoming.
If not that, just tack on an additional $20, or whatever it would take, onto NR license fees. Whats another $20 or even $50 when you're already shelling out $643. Plus, I'd gladly spent an extra $50 if I had a crack at all the NR licenses.
Bottom line is that most Montana dont give a shit either way when it comes to outfitter tags. Their ox isnt getting gored and as long as the MTG&OA promises to pay for the BMP, Montanans just view it as something they dont have to pay for. Their cheapness is costing them plenty though.
Its as simple as that.
The sad part of the whole deal is that MT's resident hunters are actually getting hammered pretty hard because of the guaranteed tags (increased leasing) and have been since day one.
Complacency by 99% of the resident hunters in Montana will be what ultimately keeps the welfare outfitters in business.
I bet if an honest 10% of the Montana Residents went to meetings and demanded change, along with workable solutions...things would change.
But, its easier to sit on the couch and eat tater chips rather than do something constructive.
smalls
Well-known member
Is there any information that compares the amount of BMP vs. Leased ground? Or increase in leased acres since the conception of BMP?
Fin? Nemont?
Smalls:
Currently, both the outfitters and the BMP state that they have around 7,500,000 acres leased (outfitters), or enrolled (BMP).
When the legislation was passed in 1995, the outfitters agreed that they would report their leased acres to the board of outfitters, so we could see if our concern of leasing was correct.
Well, they, and the board of outfitters (comprised of an outfitter majority), never got around to establishing a system to track the leased acres by outfitters. What a surprise.
In 2002, when we asked for the info., they said it wasn't available. The legislature then set-up some lame system where the outfitters self-report their acres leased.
Do you trust this self reporting method? I have two clients that are large ranches that are now under outfitter control and paid on a per-animal basis. The landowners did not sign a lease, but do not allow public hunting, as the outfitter requests no other hunters be on the ranch. I suspect these types of arrangements, which are "quasi" leases, are not being reported.
The numbers MOGA will use states that since they did their first reporting in 2002, the actual leased acres has went down slightly. We have no idea what has happened since the base-line year of 1995, as the records were never started.
I think a quick poll of most people would be overwhelming in stating that leasing increased dramatically in those first seven years.
Anyhow, our local rod and gun club will be sponsoring legislation to get rid of the outfitter welfare tag situation. It is no secret among the outfitters that we are going to try do this again.
Whether or not our legislators will support it, is always a crap shoot.
When we introduced a bill that would have had residents pay for some of the Block Management Program, it didn't even make it out of the House Fish and Game Committee. We had proposed a $25 user stamp. That way, the guy in Western, MT (where there is little BMP) wouldn't be paying for something he didn't use. Resident hunters were up in arms. I couldn't beleive it. They spent more than $25 in gas to drive to the hearing to piss and moan about the proposal.
The legislators who were sided with outfitters, don't want to see a different funding tool for BMP, as they know that the biggest obstacle for removing the welfare tags, is finding a way to fund the BMP.
In many respects, the BMP is a subsidy of poor quality hunting to the resident hunter, and weaning him off that subsidy will be just as hard as weaning the outfitters of the guaranteed tag subsidy.
Should be interesting. In the mean time, I will just hunt and fish for a couple more years, until such time we need to gear up for another battle.
Note that when this program was renewed in the 2003 legislative session, the outfitters requested that the seven year review process be gotten rid of, and the program made permanent. That seven year review provision was kept in tact, and is the only real battle we won in the war.
It makes for an interesting "dust up" with the outfitters every few years or so.
Oh, if you ever want to make an outfitter mad, just state the following Theodore Roosevelt quote in a public hearing. They are pretty sensivitive about the image of their fat ass high dollar "Daniel Boone wanna' be's":
“The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide or for the feathers or for the meat or to sell antlers and other trophies........and the rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions – these are the men who are the real enemies of game.”
Happy Hunting!
Currently, both the outfitters and the BMP state that they have around 7,500,000 acres leased (outfitters), or enrolled (BMP).
When the legislation was passed in 1995, the outfitters agreed that they would report their leased acres to the board of outfitters, so we could see if our concern of leasing was correct.
Well, they, and the board of outfitters (comprised of an outfitter majority), never got around to establishing a system to track the leased acres by outfitters. What a surprise.
In 2002, when we asked for the info., they said it wasn't available. The legislature then set-up some lame system where the outfitters self-report their acres leased.
Do you trust this self reporting method? I have two clients that are large ranches that are now under outfitter control and paid on a per-animal basis. The landowners did not sign a lease, but do not allow public hunting, as the outfitter requests no other hunters be on the ranch. I suspect these types of arrangements, which are "quasi" leases, are not being reported.
The numbers MOGA will use states that since they did their first reporting in 2002, the actual leased acres has went down slightly. We have no idea what has happened since the base-line year of 1995, as the records were never started.
I think a quick poll of most people would be overwhelming in stating that leasing increased dramatically in those first seven years.
Anyhow, our local rod and gun club will be sponsoring legislation to get rid of the outfitter welfare tag situation. It is no secret among the outfitters that we are going to try do this again.
Whether or not our legislators will support it, is always a crap shoot.
When we introduced a bill that would have had residents pay for some of the Block Management Program, it didn't even make it out of the House Fish and Game Committee. We had proposed a $25 user stamp. That way, the guy in Western, MT (where there is little BMP) wouldn't be paying for something he didn't use. Resident hunters were up in arms. I couldn't beleive it. They spent more than $25 in gas to drive to the hearing to piss and moan about the proposal.
The legislators who were sided with outfitters, don't want to see a different funding tool for BMP, as they know that the biggest obstacle for removing the welfare tags, is finding a way to fund the BMP.
In many respects, the BMP is a subsidy of poor quality hunting to the resident hunter, and weaning him off that subsidy will be just as hard as weaning the outfitters of the guaranteed tag subsidy.
Should be interesting. In the mean time, I will just hunt and fish for a couple more years, until such time we need to gear up for another battle.
Note that when this program was renewed in the 2003 legislative session, the outfitters requested that the seven year review process be gotten rid of, and the program made permanent. That seven year review provision was kept in tact, and is the only real battle we won in the war.
It makes for an interesting "dust up" with the outfitters every few years or so.
Oh, if you ever want to make an outfitter mad, just state the following Theodore Roosevelt quote in a public hearing. They are pretty sensivitive about the image of their fat ass high dollar "Daniel Boone wanna' be's":
“The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide or for the feathers or for the meat or to sell antlers and other trophies........and the rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions – these are the men who are the real enemies of game.”
Happy Hunting!
smalls
Well-known member
Much appreciated.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Big fin,
When the time comes for letter writing and meeting attendance when the 7 years is up...let me know. I'd like to be involved.
When the time comes for letter writing and meeting attendance when the 7 years is up...let me know. I'd like to be involved.
RockyDog
Member
right now im working on my WY applicationm elk, elk sunlight basin tag like always. =maybe this is the year
RD
RD
AkBearHunter
Member
Don't have any out of state hunts planned this year so all mine will be in Alaska.
Hunt # 1 will be for a Chugach Mountain brown bear
" # 2 will be in August for sheep, hopefully we'll draw, if not we're off to the Alaska Range.
" # 3 hopefully will be for archery moose along the Dalton Highway, if we don't draw then we're off to the Alaska Range for a new moose hunting area.
" # 4 September/early October for mtn goat, if we draw, if not maybe registration hunt.
" # 5 November hunt for blacktails at a friends lodge on POW.
We've already started planning for another big float hunt for caribou in the fall of '09.
Hunt # 1 will be for a Chugach Mountain brown bear
" # 2 will be in August for sheep, hopefully we'll draw, if not we're off to the Alaska Range.
" # 3 hopefully will be for archery moose along the Dalton Highway, if we don't draw then we're off to the Alaska Range for a new moose hunting area.
" # 4 September/early October for mtn goat, if we draw, if not maybe registration hunt.
" # 5 November hunt for blacktails at a friends lodge on POW.
We've already started planning for another big float hunt for caribou in the fall of '09.
wyomingtim
Member
Well AkBearHunter, if I lived in Alsaka I wouldn't see a point in applying elsewhere, except maybe for elk. Of course don't we all say that since we aren't living up there?
ERSS
Well-known member
Can't wait to get home and hunt
I got no big plans for 08, just want to get home and hunt!
Missed hunting season in Idaho for the first time in years last year, due to my current military deployment overseas in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.
I have been living vicariously through your website and enjoy all the stories and photos.
Was not able to take my 12 year old son on his first deer hunt in 07, but luckily have a good friend back home who took him out and got him on some deer. Scored on a nice muley doe.
I am scheduled to be home in time for the rifle seasons this year, but will again miss out on the archery season.
My 08 plans include a much needed famliy hunt in my home state. I am lucky in that my wife, 17 year old daughter and 12 year old son all enjoy hunting ( and my littlest one just loves being out in the woods ). A week with my family in our wall tent, eating dutch oven cordon bleu and cobbler....and chasing elk of course, sounds like heaven.
Looking at controlled youth cow tags in a couple areas that also have regular controlled hunts at the same time. If we don't draw.......we have had good success in past years in the Island Park Zone.
Plan to take my son out to South Dakota in November for pheasants, and maybe a turkey.
Just want to get out in the woods!
Keep up the stories and photos!
I got no big plans for 08, just want to get home and hunt!
Missed hunting season in Idaho for the first time in years last year, due to my current military deployment overseas in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.
I have been living vicariously through your website and enjoy all the stories and photos.
Was not able to take my 12 year old son on his first deer hunt in 07, but luckily have a good friend back home who took him out and got him on some deer. Scored on a nice muley doe.
I am scheduled to be home in time for the rifle seasons this year, but will again miss out on the archery season.
My 08 plans include a much needed famliy hunt in my home state. I am lucky in that my wife, 17 year old daughter and 12 year old son all enjoy hunting ( and my littlest one just loves being out in the woods ). A week with my family in our wall tent, eating dutch oven cordon bleu and cobbler....and chasing elk of course, sounds like heaven.
Looking at controlled youth cow tags in a couple areas that also have regular controlled hunts at the same time. If we don't draw.......we have had good success in past years in the Island Park Zone.
Plan to take my son out to South Dakota in November for pheasants, and maybe a turkey.
Just want to get out in the woods!
Keep up the stories and photos!
