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G. W. Bush losing conservationists

BuzzH

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It seems that Dubya is in for a nice little battle over MT's Rocky Mountain Front...I hope he plans on packing a lunch.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59945-2003Nov3.html

"Saying you're the friend of sportsmen because you support gun ownership, while using it to hide the dismantling of America's conservation policies, is patently dishonest," Dean wrote recently in Outdoors Unlimited, a publication of the Outdoor Writers of America.

As much as any wildlife habitat in the West, the Rocky Mountain Front is an instructive place to observe the collision between the administration's energy policy and the passions of the nation's major hunting and conservation groups.

The Front is the gateway from the Great Plains to the largest cluster of protected wilderness in the lower 48. The region abuts a 2 million-acre swath of mountains stretching south from Glacier National Park down through three designated wilderness areas to the outskirts of Helena, Montana's capital.

The land along the Front is a patchwork of federal, state and private ownership, and very little of it has an official wilderness designation. But boundaries and designations have little influence on large seasonal migrations of big game.

Grizzly and brown bears, the country's second-largest herd of elk, mule deer, white-tailed deer, wolves, mountain goats, the country's largest herd of bighorn sheep, bobcats, lynx, wolverines, and coyotes all venture out of the high country into the foothills and plains along the Front at various times of the year.

The Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife & Parks classifies the Front as a part of the top 1 percent of wildlife habitat in the United States. The only major big-game animal not still present in large numbers is the buffalo, which was hunted to near-extinction in the late 1800s."

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 11-05-2003 18:55: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
 
Good article. But it appears that this is not a "grass roots" concern for a huge segment of the American public. Mostly the people who live there, it appears. This may just be another example of "Democracy" in action. Just like the majority of Montanana wanted I-143, the majority of Americans will want natural gas and they want it at an affordable price, particularly if it can be extracted with a minimum of impact. (And it can be.) I don't like all the freighters in "my" coastline, or all the trucks on the Long Beach freeway hauling things from "my" harbor to the consumers in Montana. They impact my ability to breathe! The fishing is now terrible where I used to catch halibut daily as a kid. If you do catch one, you'd best not eat it because of the pollution! I doubt that "they" are going to turn the entire Front into downtown Pittsburg.
 
Cali, I agree with most of your post.

The problem is, they dont have to turn it into Pittsburg to severly impact wildlife there, a very crucial area for MT's wildlife.

It doesnt have to be a local issue, you have as much right to ownership of that wildlife and land as people who live in Augusta and Choteau. I suggest letting your reps know how you feel about that. Sorry to hear about how things are so messed up near your home, thats exactly why I've already voiced my opinion on the Front issue...I dont want the same thing to happen in MT.

The value of that area and its wildlife is worth way more monitarily to Montana and the tax payers (owners) of that land than the tiny amount of gas found there (if its there).

As per usual, the Bush Administration continues to support their oil buddies at any cost to the economy, wildlife, or anything else thats "in the way".
 
Buzz,

Bush has never had support from conservationists. He has an R behind his name. How can he be losing something he never had? Buzz, why don't you share with us, what kind of heat source you use to heat your families home? Don't you think you are part of the problem? Making this issue political wont solve anything. Any solutions?

Paul
 
Yeah, real simple solution.

Instead of mining more natural gas and screwing up aruguably some of the best wildlife habitat in the U.S. maybe the Bush Admininstration could do things to conserve energy. You know simple shit, like give people tax credits for installing better windows in their homes, installing better insulation, installing more efficient furnaces, solar panels...etc. etc.

No, instead Bush will continue to call for an increase in drilling to repay his buddies for filling his war chest, while at the same time dropping a cool 87 billion in iraq, and then dump on wildlife and habitat and give it NO consideration.

How can you defend an administation that will crap on wildlife, hunters, and the land like that?
 
Buzz,

You didn't say what energy source you use to heat your home.

Conservation incentives are a good start. I know there have been programs in the past. Not sure what's out there today. I do know that there are dollars for alternative energy sources such as solar, but the money comes at the expense of energy subsidies for the poor. But even with conservation practices, we still need large supply of natural gas.

Anyone watch the 60 minutes program 3 or 4 weeks ago? One segment delt with the restricted natural gas supplies, rising prices, increasing demand, and what to do about it. The answer was Alaska. The problem is getting it from there to here. Some political B. S. involving what route to use to get it to the Lower 48 made it a very interesting show.

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 11-06-2003 13:17: Message edited by: BHR ]</font>
 
"Typical simplified rhetorical bullshit from a conservative."


Sounds pretty simplified, rhetorical and bull shitty to me.
rolleyes.gif
But it's from a liberal, I assume?
 
Rocky Dog,

My point is, if you are a consumer in anyway, you are part of the problem. You CAN have a say where the product comes from, and how it is brought to market. If you don't like how it is being done and don't have any alternative solutions, you are just a whinner. What are Your solutions? Buzz's post was just a cheap atempt to bash Bush. I'm just checking to see if he has any ammo to back his bullshit. Rockypup, you never answered me a while back. How did you vote on the Buy the Dams Initiative in Montana's last election? An answer would be helpful to let me know where you are coming from. Did you watch the 60 minutes segment?

Paul
 
I recall reading a post from a certain guy, that the fed lands are everyone's and that someone in NY has the same right to how it's managed as the guy living next door to the fed lands.

To put everything into prospective.

How many of you live in a plastic house, no natural building materials what so ever.

You wear no leather, use glue, etc., etc., etc... Hell, I can even say plastic house, animal fats are used in the production of plastic.

You don't own anything with any metal. Which includes, cars, machinery, electronics, including the damn computer your reading this on, screws, nuts, bolts, etc...

Use any form of fuel including, oil, gas, natural gas, propane or otherwise, for running any form of transportation, equipement operation, or as a heat source.

Or in any way pay or buy something from someone that uses any of the above products.

If you do (YOU ARE PROMOTING MINING, LOGGING, FUEL EXTRACTION, CATTLE PRODUCTION, ETC.) There are many, many people that are screaming at you right now for your extraction of wildlife and screwing up (their ideal ecosystem). Buzz, if your elk is a productive part of that areas ecosystem and you prematurely extract that bull, you have just disrupted nature.

Nothing like being a victim of comfort, huh Buzz, ElkG and IT. Do you know what they call giving the government all the power on the land and what, where and how people do things for a living...........Communism. Being fanatically selfish is not an attribute I would want to be associated with.

Some here believe they are conciderably more important, smarter or whatever - than others using this board. That is called delusions of granduer. You are simply hanging on the coat tails of people like Marvel or who ever the hell he is, with some members thinking he's God and his word is law. Guess what? He's just a person with an opinion just like the rest of us and I could care less who he is or what he's done. What the hell does that have to do with paying my morgage or feeding my kids.

In two hundred years, if human kind is still around, you or your bitching, whining and moaning is not going to amount to a speck of fly shit. IT, EG, Buzz, the human race are parasites, plain and simple. Deal with it...

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 11-06-2003 22:10: Message edited by: Troy Jones ]</font>
 
Rock dog see a good doctor before it`s to late! Glad to know that you don`t like "conservatives". Maybee you could tell us how Al Bore would have been a better president! Go ahead educate us conservatives.
 
Troy,

Why did you decide to drag me into this thread? I hadn't posted a single thought on this....
confused.gif
But, if I am just a "speck of fly shit", then why do you feel the need to rebut statements before I make them? Pretty funny that I can make you uncomfortable with my ideas, from 800 miles away, prior to me even posting the idea... I guess maybe I am an effective "speck of fly shit", in that you have to think about my opinions...
tongue.gif


Were you able to come up with this post on your own, or did you have to write down what the old Wise guys down at Flo's Diner in BumPhug, SD told you was wisdom?
biggrin.gif


Show me where I am against "MINING, LOGGING, FUEL EXTRACTION, CATTLE PRODUCTION", please. I am just against these activities WHEN and WHERE it negatively impacts my hunting and fishing, and my kids'.

So, thank you very much, but I can find all the leather I need from the cattle I own. I can also find all the beef I need, from the cattle I own. I don't need some Welfare Rancher's subsidized cows ruining my public lands, just to provide me a hamburger.
 
What I have personally witnessed on welfare ranching is completely different from your views. We had National Forest service cattle permits and you can sure have them. We gave ours up after 2 years. Summer gain on the FS lease was poor and it was much more work than what it was worth. It might be different in other places, but it wasn't my experience. The great public land hunters cut fence to go in where they wanted and cut fence going out, shot up water tanks and corrals. It took two weeks in the Spring to fix fence from hunters and dead fall trees. During the summer, gates were often left open and twice had to rent a helicopter to find cattle, then the work began. Driving 100 miles one way to the site every time, along with maintenance, I guess I don't see the welfare part. I don't care anymore because like I said before, we got rid of it and just purchased some more land that was closer.

You sound more like a hobby farmer than a rancher. I don't feel uncomfortable or threatened by anyone, just amazed by the tunnel vision and selfishness. You really ought to be thankful for what you have.

EG, I just brought you in to the picture because you're one of the three here that thinks he's always right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe I just like being the underdog. I'll be waiting for a reply from you and your cohorts, your arrogance makes me laugh, like spoiled children. Excersize your imagination this time, no quotes, or articles. The old ranchers at coffee and the inbred South Dakota lines have been used several times already. Don't be followers, be original, you can do it. I guess I have to realize who I'm dealing with, if you have any problems, maybe you can get together with ithaca and you might be able to come up with something together or maybe you could call Marvel or whoever you're a groupie to.
 
Troy- Thanks for that! I wish more posters here would STOP with any type of personal attack and discuss the issues facts/opinions.
 
Just read through some of my posts and realized what I was doing. I am not like that and was just obviously caught up in the typical BS arguing and attacks that seem to be the norm here anymore. I have done it before and this time I decided to say sorry for being an asshole. Having a bad couple of days just seemed to add to it. Remember, you is the only person any of you have to prove yourself to, not me, or anyone else...
 
Look at 1-Ptr... Always the PeaceMaker
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Troy,
Don't back away from posting your opinions and thoughts.

I can only speak for me, but I recognize the target I am when I post soemthing inflammatory/uncomfortable. But I feel I need to say it, most times. Certainly continue to attack my opinions and thoughts, as it just makes me make sure I have them better defined.

A lot of these Natural Resource issues are going to be decided by perserverence/longevity, and the Marvels of the world believe they are fighting the Good Fight, so they will keep trying. If you look at Buzz and Ithica's posts, they don't show any signs of wearing down, in a similar vein.

I'll always go back to the premise that if I am wrong on Wilderness, Breaching, Grazing, we can reverse the position I call for. Once you extinct the Salmon, road the Wilderness, you can never go back. The risk on one side can be reversed, the other way it is permanent.

Cheers, and I would hope to also be able to be a bit more "compassionate" towards others here in Sportsman's Issues.
 
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