Fill out Idaho survey.....

[Steelhead]

Statistics...
There's probably a reason why 78 out of 79 hunters DO NOT want any point system in Idaho.
I have a feeling that the few people who are in favor of em just buy points in many states each year and don't really have a plan or need to use them anytime soon. These are not the people who should be dictating our year-to-year hunting in the great state of Idaho.
As a hunter that blindly buys points in WY and CO, buys points with some sort of purpose in OR, applies in Alaska, applies in WA because I have to and has hunted and spent a lot of time in Idaho...it is clear to me how wonderful it is to hunt a state where you can put forth as much or as little effort as you want and be rewarded accordingly all without the bother of an overemphasis on draws and points.

 

[ERSS]

I expect to wait 25 - 30 years to draw a Bighorn Sheep Tag, Mountain Goat Tag, or Shiras Moose Tag.

I expect to wait 15-25 years to draw a Prime Elk Tag.

I expect to wait 10-15 years to draw a good Mule Deer Tag.

Your expectations and mine are definitely incongruent. To each their own, but having lived and hunted for "a few years" in Idaho....I think my view of being opposed to preference or bonus points is consistent with the majority of Idaho resident hunters, which is the target population of the survey.

At least I hope the survey results play out that way....they did the last time public input was solicited on this topic.

We have a good thing going in Idaho, I hope they don't screw it up

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Dude I hear blah blah blah passion, passion, willingness to wait, etc.
Do you realize that you could draw a moose tag next year in idaho...or a mule deer tag where a 170-180 buck takes barely more than a little effort or an elk tag where you'll find yourself surrounded by 30 bugling bulls??
oh yeah forgot to mention...you could draw a sweet tag every year, every year!!
it's like you're arguing because you want to wait 15 years between great hunts and we're arguing so you don't have to.

PS: what statistics do you want to hear about?

I was asked to do some research and I was curious to where the research is.

I would like to read it, I enjoy reading scientific articles.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

This shows that you don't really know anything about Idaho.

What I was getting at is the way numbers are expressed.

For example unit 1-1 moose with draw odds of 12%.

Odds are expressed in a ratio.

Likelihood an event will happen vs the likelihood an event will not happen.

12% is really 3 to 22 odds. (3/25 = 12%)

3 people will draw out of every 25 people.

22 people will be unsuccessful out of every 25 people.

The 12% is a probability of success and not the odds of success.

In bonus point states, the draw odds are expressed even more poorly due to not preforming the calculation with respect to points.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

TDA,
It sounds to me that you have spent some real time coming up with ways that you can justify your selfish attitude and sence of entitlement when it comes to drawing tags.
I cannot blame Matt for the emotional way he responded to you claiming you have a right to better drawing odds than his children who will be of hunting age in the near future.
If we were to go to a point system now we would essentially be punishing them for being ineligible these next few years. If we want to increase the fairness of the system we should increase the waiting periods after successful applicants draw in order to "punish" them with lower odds of drawing after being successful.
The bottom line is that there are much better ways of increasing odds in Idaho than any type of point system would provide!

I respect your opinion on this and I realize I may not have the right answer or the answer that will benefit the majority - especially those living in Idaho.

I am in favor of a bonus point system and I really don't see how having that opinion makes me a youth hating, selfish, and scumbag of a person.

I filled out the survey expressing my opinion and I will let the results cater to my planning for the upcoming draws.

 

[ERSS]

What I was getting at is the way numbers are expressed.

For example unit 1-1 moose with draw odds of 12%.

Odds are expressed in a ratio.

Likelihood an event will happen vs the likelihood an event will not happen.

12% is really 3 to 22 odds. (3/25 = 12%)

3 people will draw out of every 25 people.

22 people will be unsuccessful out of every 25 people.

The 12% is a probability of success and not the odds of success.

In bonus point states, the draw odds are expressed even more poorly due to not preforming the calculation with respect to points.

For the non-statistician, this is simply semantics. As reported, when hunts are compared against each other, it is easy to determine which one an individual is more likely to draw.

Your last post truly displays your intention to simply be a "pot stirrer"

 

[d-bone20917]

I completed the survey. I love the fact that there is no point system in this state. I've only been here a little over 7 months, but I've yet to meet anyone that thinks adding a point system is a good idea.

 

[Huntin_GI]

My question to TheDude is why do you equate coddling to youth and new hunters to not accepting a system that dictates years of applications and fees for the slimmest of opportunity to hunt?

Systems that encourage consistent long term money grabs for opportunity to hunt highly sought after big game could be equated to Pay to Hunt systems you would see when people are buying land owner tags? The only difference being the state is operating as a layway while people purchasing land owner tags are just paying a convience fee.

Systems like Idaho's give equal creedance to parties involved. I can understand the frustration if you dont get lucky but why would you want to subject yourself to long term expensive point accrual when you can enter the draw with equal chance year after year? If your answer to that is i am increasing my odds and i deserve to be rewarded for my consistent applications you are essentialy coddling those who are bitter about not drawing?

Non bonus/preference point states are doing the exact opposite of coddling and saying come try your luck and that is that.
Additionally, it sounds like you are expressimg that was what you had to endure and why shouldnt others have to endure the same thing. My goal as a sportsman is to leave the system better than i found it and if that means we all end up with equal opportunities i feel that has been accomplished.

 

[Duck-Slayer]

Cut him some slack...he got his noggin scrambled in a car accident. He cuts to the chase, kind of lacking on the people skills.

This is very true...... my people skills between going over sea's and getting the noggin scrambled are very poor.... but i'm working on it, took over the Idaho Bowfishing Association and have spread the word about this survey too all my peeps on FB and email and IBA meetings etc..... have we met by the way? my memory on meeting people isn't good either..
Matt

 

[idahofishnhunt]

This is very true...... my people skills between going over sea's and getting the noggin scrambled are very poor.... but i'm working on it, took over the Idaho Bowfishing Association and have spread the word about this survey too all my peeps on FB and email and IBA meetings etc..... have we met by the way? my memory on meeting people isn't good either..
Matt

We've chatted a few times...but did meet face to face a few years back ice fishing on Lake Lowell, I had my daughter with me...and I had miraculously caught a crappie, and you said you had never seen one caught ice fishing out there. I think it was the second cold year when there was enough ice to fish out there...was out from the ramp at the upper dam.

 

[Duck-Slayer]

lol... awesome... i'm glad you remember.... hopefully I was equally nice while chatting with you,
Matt

 

[idahofishnhunt]

lol... awesome... i'm glad you remember.... hopefully I was equally nice while chatting with you,
Matt

It wasn't a long chat, but was pleasant enough...you were on a mission punching holes trying to find fish, it was foggy...and with your gray Frabill suit on...you disappeared into the mist.

 

[b0nes]

Idaho's system needs no changing. I've put in as a resident for 6 years total, drawn 2 great deer tags and filled both tags with great bucks. It's one of the better systems in the west. I love the 1 year waiting period also. Nobody is drawing 2 good deer or elk tags in a row and the Otc tags are fantastic, it's hard hunting but virtually every otc tag has trophy opportunity.

 

[Steelhead]

Have the few (two) parties in favor of points addressed the question that when they finally do draw after years of accumulating points that the following year (and all subsequent years) their odds will drop to terrible, horrible and worse than ever before for the rest of their lives?

As a matter of fact, statistically and whatnot. I'm betting that over a lifetime of hunting (or 20 years or so) that the odds will be waaaay better of drawing a 2-5% chance tag twice over that time frame without points than with points?
i.e.
5%, 5%, 5%, 5%...
instead of
5%, 5.5%, 6.2%, 7%, 7.8%, draw, 0.2%, 0.3%, 0.4%...

*Yes I make all of my numbers up

 

[Baerman]

residents and non-residents view the system differently. one question on the survey maybe should have been are you in favor of a bonus point system for non-residents only. I could see this as an option but to hell with that idea for residents!

 

[TheDudeAbides]

My question to TheDude is why do you equate coddling to youth and new hunters to not accepting a system that dictates years of applications and fees for the slimmest of opportunity to hunt?

I love point systems. I'm relatively new to serious big game hunting. I hunted in my youth and then went to college and was hooked on the duck and goose hunting. I put in for points while I was going to school and strapped on cash. I loved the fact that I wasn't going to hunt and could still build for a hunt in the future. Now, I can see all of these youth hunts and a lot of parents are footing the bill. I see a lot of these kids take it for granted, because they do not have to earn it (coddling). I see what I did in college and after college as a way of earning my way into the hunting pool. I can still get over the counter tags and draw low demand tags, while building towards hunts. Opportunity is about growing the population of hunt-able animals. No point system or lottery system will fix a 2 tag draw or make the Henry Mountains easier to draw. It would be hard to convince me that a youth starting today in Montana would never draw a mountain goat tag in Montana, because the population of hunt-able goats is higher. A point system gives the state more resources (Money) to grow populations, which has a chance at increasing hunt-able populations. Even though, I'm relatively new - I still would prefer someone who has been applying 20 years to draw a head of me. They have sacrificed and earned the right to hunt that area through years of diligence and disappointment. I hope that makes sense and answers your question.

Systems that encourage consistent long term money grabs for opportunity to hunt highly sought after big game could be equated to Pay to Hunt systems you would see when people are buying land owner tags? The only difference being the state is operating as a layway while people purchasing land owner tags are just paying a convience fee.

They might be money grabs, but where is that money going. I'm not sure, but I think it does back into habitat development and growing of species. The more animals we have to hunt, the less the way the system to draw the tag matters.

Systems like Idaho's give equal creedance to parties involved. I can understand the frustration if you dont get lucky but why would you want to subject yourself to long term expensive point accrual when you can enter the draw with equal chance year after year? If your answer to that is i am increasing my odds and i deserve to be rewarded for my consistent applications you are essentialy coddling those who are bitter about not drawing?

I view it more as investing and building towards a hunting future rather than being bitter that I didn't draw. Even though, it is a little chaffing to strike out on moose 3 years in a row - I turned that money around on the refund to buy deer/elk/bear tags in Idaho. I still will probably put in for Moose and try to chase bears in the reduced zone when I can, but would love it even more if I could get slightly better odds the next year for moose. I've only ever drawn General Deer, Cow Elk, Turkey, and Swan. Part of the game is building spreadsheets and seeing what I can do with the points that I have. Building points and getting up to the max point pool is the goal. I can always go over the counter if I don't draw (Wyoming res next year, Colorado/Idaho Elk, Nebraska ML, etc). I throw shots in the dark in states I do not plan to hunt and hope to get lucky and I plan out tags that I can draw in the future. So, it's a process with microsoft excel and statistics. To me the application period has been the best part of big game hunting.

Non bonus/preference point states are doing the exact opposite of coddling and saying come try your luck and that is that.
Additionally, it sounds like you are expressimg that was what you had to endure and why shouldnt others have to endure the same thing. My goal as a sportsman is to leave the system better than i found it and if that means we all end up with equal opportunities i feel that has been accomplished.

With the endurance, what will mean more. Drawing that tag after 20 years or drawing that tag on the first round? I think we will have to agree to disagree on the answer to that question.I appreciate your opinion and your response.

See Red

 

[TheDudeAbides]

residents and non-residents view the system differently. one question on the survey maybe should have been are you in favor of a bonus point system for non-residents only. I could see this as an option but to hell with that idea for residents!

I love this idea.

Let me give Idaho money on years, I want to go try Coues in Arizona or Sitka's in Alaska. That way the $151 license fee is an easier decision on those years.

The only issue is that you'll have to allocate 10% of the tags to a separate pool, which will decrease your draw odds slightly or increase them slightly. The current draw system has a weird way of giving non residents tag. It's almost like the Knicks and Patrick Ewing. Almost

 

[BuzzH]

I hope the Idaho hunters fight off the Ponzi scheme of bonus or preference points.

The only fair system is a random draw, every year. Anything other than that is, in fact, taking opportunity away from one party and giving it to another....that simple.

Like many others on the board here, I've been playing the point game going on 20 years in most all the Western States. The longer I apply, the more I realize just how unfair preference and bonus point systems really are. Its 100% about the ground floor of applicants, and everyone else is pretty much screwed. Meaning those not in on the first year of points are looking at decades to even get to the top point pool or else hunting lesser units and/or general areas their whole lives.

Plus, the other thing that many aren't considering is that lots of States are realizing the fallacy of point systems and either have, or are looking for ways, to give first time applicants more of a chance. Point systems change all the time (Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, have all changed theirs at least once).

IMO, long term, with the harder to draw tags (moose, sheep, goat, best elk, deer, pronghorn), there will be less people applying. Most hunters can do simple math, and starting to apply for a state like WY for sheep and probably moose, just isn't worth it. The revenue is going to dry up from point sales...just the way it is.

I hope you Idaho guys can maintain your random draw...good luck.

BTW, myself and a few others fought (successfully) the Resident preference point idea here in Wyoming for deer, elk, and pronghorn...hammer your legislature and game and fish, its your wildlife.

 

[Elkmagnet]

A point system gives the state more resources (Money) to grow populations, which has a chance at increasing hunt-able populations.

A lot of our populations are "at" objective. The reason draw odds are so low in Idaho is because the vast majority of units are OVER THE COUNTER- GENERAL SEASON! So we have few premium draw hunts. This is why we can't compare Idaho to most other states when it comes to draw systems.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Have the few (two) parties in favor of points addressed the question that when they finally do draw after years of accumulating points that the following year (and all subsequent years) their odds will drop to terrible, horrible and worse than ever before for the rest of their lives?

As a matter of fact, statistically and whatnot. I'm betting that over a lifetime of hunting (or 20 years or so) that the odds will be waaaay better of drawing a 2-5% chance tag twice over that time frame without points than with points?
i.e.
5%, 5%, 5%, 5%...
instead of
5%, 5.5%, 6.2%, 7%, 7.8%, draw, 0.2%, 0.3%, 0.4%...

*Yes I make all of my numbers up

I would tend to think they would actually be fairly similar. In that you would probably not draw either. 5% probability is a 95% probability you will not draw the tag. Even if you string it out over time, they will not get any better than 95% chance that you will not draw.

If you want (for science) give me an average number of points per applicant for the points side and I can calculate the numbers.

I can do it for bonus point squared too, but preference points would be a lot tougher.