Feedback on Potenital Resources

[Big Fin]

By the way...I expect to see an episode of of a hunt that is unsuccessful...show you are human!

Coming right up. Give me another month, and tell me what you think of the one you will see that has no kill on camera.

Funny part is how liberating the unsuccessful concept is.

So many shows get hung up on the next buck/bull has to be bigger, and bigger, and bigger. And yeah, we do want to shoot the biggest bull/buck that we can get our sights on. Don't get me wrong on that.

But, when your show is about the hunt, not the size of the kill, and you are trying to demonstrate the experience, not the trophy, I don't feel I need a kill on every episode. Nor do I need to kill the biggest critter in the woods.

When you see the whitetail episode next week, you will see some really average bucks killed. In fact, maybe even below average. And, later you will see I shoot a turkey without much of a beard.

We do luck out and shoot some monster antelope, a really big bear, a few very nice bulls, and all our deer are very average.

So, I feel that I can have some clunkers, so long as the storyline is great, the production quality is high, and our message is relevant to what guys normally experience.

Whether or not that is acceptable with potential sponsors, I don't know. The companies on board already, have bought into the idea in a big way, and are happy I am not tied to each animal being bigger than the last.

Sorry to digress.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Sorry to digress.

Damnit!!!! Could you please stay on topic?

 

[csutton7]

BigFin---if it's concerning the web site only(guess I didn't read well enough) then the only issue I see is how you mention the website in the show and whether or not you want to promote true OYO hunting via the web, but like I said there's guys on here that use outfitters and to boot there are outfitters here so based on that I see no reason why you can't advertise this----chris

 

[TLC]

since it seems most of the shows are coming from out west, not sure it would hurt the website to have the 2 folks you are talking about on the website. some of the comments I have heard from the guys I have told about the show are, what about more information on the planning part. equipment needed, tags needed, etc. also, if you have these folks as resource information only, then how does it really take away from your concept of DIY? isn't the whole point to help those from out of the area do a DIY hunt? if hiring/paying someone to help with the tags takes away from that, then maybe I don't understand. have already asked, and received information from a couple on here with help finding areas to hunt, and to get help with the tag process. does this mean it will be less of a DIY hunt because I asked and got help from others? I have offered, and have had some accept my offer to use the farm as a base camp for them to hunt the national forest down here. does that mean since they are staying on private land, they are not doing a DIY hunt? in my midwest opinion, these 2 resources would not hurt the website. may help it. by giving folks more information about acquiring tags, and hunters having the opportunity to hunt private land on their own, seems to be inline with what you are doing. providing the resources to make that happen. and not sure how different it would be from the program Buzz mentioned. the access yes program. its seems to be nothing more than another option for out of staters to look at. think you guys out there forget that a lot of folks from outside your region would love to hunt out there. but when we go to check out the process for getting a tag, land to hunt, areas to hunt, holy chit. talk about a headache. have to remember, back here, we have one thing to hunt, deer. you put your application in for your first county choice, then put in your second choice. send in 15 or 30 bucks, and you get your tag in a couple three months. done. out there, you have points, and draws, and tags, and some OTC stuff. start thinking about more than just the local guys that watch the show and come on here. start thinking about all the folks that are watching the show. and how can you help out everyone. just my opinions BigFin.

 

[Nut]

Honestly my concept of on my own is I do it all myself. Applications,contacts,research and etc without anybody holding my hand or me giving them $$$. Just the way I believe on that concept. I am not opposed to somebody else dragging my deer though.

 

[Tom]

More good comments.

...

Yet, given the wide array of non-guided hunting that occurs, I do not rule out the fact that many guys have to lease or pay trespass fees, as there is no public land where they live. Their alternative is to stay at home, or hope that they draw a tag to come out west where we have tons of public land. I wish it were no the case, but that is the case for many guys.

...

I want to emphasize that what I have to do for the "Average Joe" message of this TV show will continue the way it has. But I don't want people to think that the higher level of transparency we have built into the TV show, should be the only definition of On Your Own hunting.

As with the Midwest whitetail hunts last year, I could have very easily accepted some great offers to hunt private ground, at no charge to me. But, that private ground was not "accessible to the average guy," so I took the additional challenge of trying to do it on accessible ground. And, I am glad I did it that way, even if it meant I didn't shoot one of those big Midwest whitetails.

...

In spite of my feelings similar to most of you about paying for access, my trip to the Midwest last year, and getting to talk to many guys, has given me a different perspective on the access issue. Some of these guys are being overrun with leasing, due to TV show and outfitters making their lifelong hunting places, highly desirable to non-residents. As they watch these places get leased up, farm by farm, ranch by ranch, they feel they are left with very few options. So, many of them have joined together to lease places, in competition with the commercial interests.

I view their hunting as clearly On Your Own hunting, though I understand others may not. And, having talked to many of them in my three weeks of travel, they all felt they were being forced into the decision. Not what they wanted to do, but was a reality of what they had to do, to maintain a place to hunt.

I hope it never gets that way where I live, and I spend a lot of time and money trying to fight the tide of that. But, I do have a different perspective of what those other hunters are faced with, compared to what I understood a couple years ago.

...

Thanks again for the comments, and I look forward to more of them.

To read you saying this is music to my ears. I think you should talk these things through on the show some. Did you tape some of the conversations with the midwest lease guys? I hope, I hope.

The state tag is like an access fee, you can't hunt the public land without it, no access to hunting unless you pay, and its more than $10, eh,Oak? Jose made some good points there, the mule is transport, like a plane, like a truck, etc. for example. What if a Texas guy pays the landowner the equivalent of the tag fee, if I give him money, he'll let me hunt his land for that animal, and anyone can do it, pay him and hunt the animal? A lot of them are cheaper than the $1500 oryx tag, I'll tell you that.

 

[The Hedgehog]

My opinion is that the program should make all possible efforts to maintain standards higher than those of us who, for the most part, do it on our own, yet can occassionally weaken and take a shortcut to pay a licensing service, outfitter, trespass fee, or some other less than perfectly noble method to obtain exclusive access for hunting. Lots of gray areas, no doubt. I don't want to be a hypocrite, but I think the program's key value should be to avoid that label altogether.

I'd rather watch a program covering the details about my neighbor trying hard (as Eastman's puts it) "the right way" and failing to kill an animal. Famous Joe Blow's consistant success on monster animals, due mainly as a result of access to hunt in nearly game farm conditions (due to exclusion of the rest of the players, unless they have more cash or better connections) has limited entertainment value to me. I'm continually unimpressed by most of it these days.

 

[schmalts]

Interesting opinions. I certainly hope you wouldn't judge me if I had an opportunity to hunt a ranch by invitation. I have that option on occasion and jump on the chance to do it. It's like a treat after you have fought hard on public land. I fully understand all the benefits of it and know that I still have to hunt hard a be savy about it. I do work for them in return and realize it is no where near the value they could recieve from a paying client.

I truely hope that the show can continue to hunt these public/accesable lands and still harvest animals. It truely is a feat to do this in 4-5 days of hunting with 2 "stinky" cameramen following you around. I can see now why the other shows say it is impossible.

Here's a question for you guys. How would you feel if on the shows we weren't able to harvest an animal. .

I think it was clear most guys wouldn't judge you if you did this, as long as you didn't advertise it as you did it on "public land" Hell, i get an invite to a private ranch, i'm there dude!

As far as an episode with no kill? no problem. Fill the kill shot with instead some tips on prereration, packing tips, application tips, scouting tips, and so on. These guys watching want to learn from DIY hunters so give them what they want.

 

[Grady]

I think Mr Big needs to look at this from a business perspective rather than a right/wrong perspective. The decision should be made on the basis of what's best for OYOA.

I think, although here's all kinds of gray area here, that option one is not much diferent that a subscription to Huntin Fool, TAGS, or Eastmans, the research is done for you, you get the information of where to put in for and once you get the tag you are on your own to hunt in any legal way you deem appropriate. That, to me , is on your own. If this option enables more people to get to go on the hunts they want, it will be successful, although many on this board don't need or want the extra help.

Option two, access fees to hunt on private property where other's are excluded, is a separate issue. Although I personally don't think its "wrong", I do think it would eventually lead to OYOA becoming more like the other hunting shows and losing its uniqueness. A slippery slope for sure.

A friend of mine said it best about hunting shows "Watching them before going hunting is like reading Playboy before going on a date. Nice pictures but you get unrealistic expectations (usually!)"

I personally would rather watch a show where the hunter was unsuccessful but came away with a lesson learned as that is more what I've experienced with hunting and life- lots of times you learn more from failure than from success. However, whether that's true for the general viewing audience (not the "purists" on this board) remains to be seen. Only one way to find out though......

Good luck,

G

 

[Moosie]

I like the name "Mr. Big"

I would have no problem if someone had a show and said they paid for access to some property. If someone get's their own gear, set's up their own camp, cooks for themselves and does everything on their own. It is jsut that. It's an On your Own Adventure. When someone pays someone to scout, hold their hand, being cooked for, etc, then it's an outfitted hunt.

Fin never said his show was "ALL PUBLIC", (OK maybe he did ) but I think he's pushing the satisfaction of planning a hunt, doing your own work on the hunt, the cooking, cleaning, etc, and working hard on the hunt to get your animal.

I have a friend that has access to private land but he doesn't pay for it. He bocks at a Guy like me that pays or trades for access to huning private ground. To me there is no difference.

What I do have a little issue with is when TV shows say "NO FENCES" and DIY and then never mention that they are hunting private ground. Some, Exclusivly Private to them. If you're hunting private ground, just say so..... If there is opportunity for others to hunt the private ground then to me it's 100% still OYOA that anyone can take advantage from. It's just costing a hunter a little more.

Fin never said it was a OYOA without paying a dime.... He modled it as working hard without a Babysitter I believe.

I pay extra for a better chance to get a tag in WY. Anyone can do it, but It's a PAY TO PLAY type deal. If I up my odds (That anyone can do) did I loose the OYOA status ?

 

[Grady]

I think from a long term perspective, it will be far tougher to maintain the show's all public land/ high success ratio going. Private land access would make things easier, and still be (I would think) OYO. My guess is that most average hunters would agree with you Moosie, however some dedicated purists on this forum, guys like the friend you mention, might not.

It's just this "quest for success" issue that leads most hunting shows to become game farm "hunts" with five 180+ bucks at the feeder. That's obviously what needs to be avoided, and like was said earlier
everyone makes their own decisions.

Where to draw the line for the sake of the success of the show is only a question Mr Big can answer......

G

 

[1_pointer]

One thing many here don't quite get, due to their geographic location, but I think BF has picked up on is that in many parts of the country paying/working for access is the only way to good hunting ground. Fin and Buzz were discussing access issues for MT. That is MUCH different than say even IN where there is some public ground.

I think that if exclusive access is paid for that OYOA would be best served to state that up front and how/why they set it up.

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

We all enjoy watching some of these shows until we figure out "This ain't the real thing". Monster Bucks behind every ridge and Deer that don't run when they see you, what's up with that? Quite a few of these shows originated back East where Leasing has been the norm since the mid-70s. Before that we all had access to millions of acres of Timber lands, then the leasing started. So what others have said is right, if you want to hunt you join or lease property. The land owners and the hunters have it instilled in them, no more "Hey Bob, mind if I hunt on the back of the farm?".
Now we have some age and money in our pockets and we want to hunt out West! Like pointer said "We are talking about Montana". But to a guy sitting in the East you might as well be talking about the Moon. We really don't sit down at an Office with others and talk about hunting Montana or New Mexico like you in the west do. We could use some resources other than a link to the State Game and Fish Department. And if you show an Episode on how to get started from A to Z it would go over real big, both back East and West. I really don't have the false image that just because you are from the west makes you a super hunter, we have guys like that back here. If "The Big Guy" has to do a show and is upfront on what it took to get on that piece of property and was not hand held that would qualify as a OYOA hunt to the vast majority of Hunter, especially back East. If the Outdoor Channel didn't have the numbers watching back East this or any other show could not be produced. John

 

[Wally Dog]

Fin,
I think somehow it would be beneficial to show some example of how some have secured permission to hunt private properties. It's the way I was shown by my father and grandfather in the 60' & 70's (in MN). Instill a sense of trust in the landowner, maintain contact all year long and pass along some sort of gratuity. It doesn't have to be green. Today it seems that so many new sportsman simply want to know the web address that gives them the coordinates to plug into the GPS and cha-ching, bucks, bulls & gobblers run amuck before them.
I'm constantly HUNTING for landowners that I can potentially carve out a new relationship with.......hoping the prospects of SHOOTING game on their property might follow. I sure consider prospecting for private property to hunt as "on my own".
Keep up the great work.
WD

 

[mdhunter]

Reading the above comments I am may in the minority but I think the help from an outfitter as suggested by BigFIn sounds fine by me. I am all for doing it OYO however this cant be the end all of end all, for all hunters. I live in Maryland and hunt OYO here. That being said, I hunt public land or private land depending on the conditions, time of year, and species. We don't have the vast expanses and opportunities for public land the west contains. You can certainly hunt public however if you want the quick after work whitetail hunt, nearby public land isn't always an option.We are all passionate hunters and thats why we keep checking this blog and trying to communicate with others who share our views. If it takes the internet to get us all together there must not be that many of us to begin with.
I apply for many different species throughout the west and have a twenty year plan to full fill my dreams. I hope to do most of the hunting OYO. I have hunted unguided in Wyoming and had a blast harvesting antelope. This year I drew an New Mexico archery elk tag in unit 17 during the rut. I could likely only draw this tag about once every fifteen to twenty years. Guess what, I hired an outfitter as I don't want to waste such an opportunity because of my lack of elk hunting experience.We will hunt public land but not OYO. Not my preferred way to hunt, but a necessity for me in this case.
Go for it BigFIn. Some guys will use the service and good for them. Others won't and that is fine as well. This debate sort of reminds me of the bow versus cross bow discussions. A cross bow isn't for me but I wont disparage anyone who wants to use one. We are all hunters, period.

 

[Southwind]

Personally I like the idea and it has no conflict with my notion of on my own. Especially hunting out west I would like and edge or extra set of eyes of guidance at the get go. There is some very big ground out there and not being able to hop in the truck and check every potential area out because of logistics and economics makes this idea appealing for me.

I still make the decisions ultimately, I am still out there on my own in the field. That is enough for me.

So, you can count me as one who would be for it.

 

[Grizzley]

Being a "rookie" member this sites advertisers and members have all contributed to my pursuit of becoming more of an "On Your Own" type hunter.

For some of you...it sounds like you have always been this type of hunter...maybe it was your father, uncle, mother, or brother who helped you become the hunter you are...however there are some of us out here that consider "On Your Own" as a "process". For myself, I think maybe with a few more experiences from someone with the knowhow or a little help from someone pointing out the great units to apply in across the west...I will be ready for the ultimate hunting adventure of "TRUELY" being on my own.

I would say that without the help of a "Senior Member" of this site and all of the guidance I have gleened from the posts of this website and the websites advertisers I would not have ventured out of my own state or even explored all the Public Land Options in my own state!

As for the website...if allowing a sponsor to post services helps me to learn more, grow more as a hunter, and ultimately helps me in my OYOA I am open to that. I will make the choice for myself if the service is worth the price and if it fits with my value system.

I would say that it is great to have a leader like Big Fin who I believe is working at helping hunters like me and you experience hunting adventures in the spirit of OYO! I have all the faith in the world that Big Fin will not turn this site into one that is for people with deep pockets.

 

[duckhead59]

BigFin...thanks for having the decency to throw this out on the table for opinions...and not just heading your own direction. It's a great site, great concept and GREAT people in here involved...everyone.

With that said...I think EVERYONES opinion is valid from their own definition and experience of OYO...(just as you mentioned)...like ALL of us...I had always considered OYO from my experiences and view point...deciding what to hunt, where to go, what I need, how to get it there etc. I agree, what OYO is NOT is probably much more obvious and easier to determine...but is that really necessary?

Here in the midwest we are not blessed with the vast public land and access that is available in the west. But to me someone who goes out, knocks on doors or contacts the relative of a friend for access to private land, or how ever, then scouts it, etc...is doing it OYO...at least for back here. If that involves paying a tresspass fee...so be it...they still did it OYO. If it involves a gift, exchange of work, developing relationships etc...so be it...they are doing it OYO. Now if they pay to show up, sit and shoot...sit where told, not bring gear/supplies, not scout, not put up stands, not learn the land, the animals etc, then leave...thats not OYO.

Also, think about going out of your element...flatlanders like me going to mountains...or mountain guys coming to the midwest...its a diferent ballgame and may require 'broading' our sights, but not letting go of our core. Hey, when you live in the midwest...and want to go to the western states...its a big change, its a monumentous task just getting started...and the draw stuff and regs...geez! So to get started, if I can locate a landowner, or need to pay a tresspass fee, or a fee to help w/drawing...thats OK...cuz come hunting time...I'm still going to prep myself, show up, bring my gear, set up, scout and HUNT all on OYO.

It seems private land has a bad rap out west?..back here its almost all private...and hopefully you all wont experience the ravage of these outfitter/hunt club leases, but its rampant back here and has displaced many a good hunter. I'm fortunate to have a farm, its private and posted. If you dont post it...it gets overrun, vandalized, things get stolen etc (trust me the signs dont stop all that but they do set a law precident). I still let people who stop and ask hunt occassionally, and I'm a real sucker for letting the local young kids hunt if they ask...in exchange for keeing an eye on the place for me as I live 240 miles from my farm.

Sorry about the rant...to me...I like both ideas you are bringing to the table...they are merely aids to help people achieve things they might not be able to do without it....like anything...if someone doesnt like it...dont utilize it?...but I know I would utilize both services. Eitherway, I respect EVERYONES opinion on the above posts. And remember...we are all hunters, enjoying what we love and sharing it with friends, family and other hunters we meet along the way.

 

[Smokey76]

Hello Big Fin, and every one else,
As you all can see I am new to the site, but not the game.
Just a couple thing's, Yes I would be willing to pay one maybe two hundred bucks to hunt on private land, but not public. Why you ask, one as some of you might have seen, I am trying to find a hunting buddy to go on a spring black bear hunt with me this comeing year 2010, and the non-resident tag is $350.00, plus gas, food, etc, from Indiana and back, so what am I realy paying for, I am paying to be able to hunt, "MY" land public land that my tax dollars help pay for, but I get to hunt MY way, when and where, I want to hunt. Still it is cheaper than paying a guide, $5,000 to show me where to hunt!!

Yes I would give a couple hundred bucks to hunt private land, IF I would get to hunt it MY way, and that means, when I go to MT, this spring it's for a ten day hunt, and that is my choice, so would I be the one REALY in charge, and get to decide where, and how long I get to hunt ?
So if a couple guy's want to realy, help out their hunting partners, make it a price that us working class guy's can pay, and make it a true OYOA, by letting the hunter decide when and where !!

We all need to keep in view the real hunting goal, and that is to keep doing what we have been doing for the last 100 years, and that as a hunter is all of our resposibilties, to preserve, protect, and pass on the gift of hunting that god has given to us, to our kids, family, and friends.

To all of you who might be interested, this spring 2010, I will be holding the "First Annual Whitetail Clean up" here in Indiana. This is a program to help promote, protect, and preserve the Whitetail of North America. All of the money rasied will be donated to the local DNR, to help pay for the public hunting land, and programs, that they offer to all of us.
So if you would be interested in more info on The First Annual Whitetail Clean up, send me an e-mail at [email protected]
Thanks, and I wish you all the best of luck this hunting season.
Terry S.

 

[mdcrossbow]

I hunted the Bad lands 2 years ago for turkey, I paid the reservation fee and I paid for a semi guided hunt. Which I was shown different areas to hunt and let go. For me I was on my own at that point. I hunted and area the size of RI and never saw another hunter. It took me a day of scouting to find the birds and I knocked down 2 that week.

I still consider that on my own mainly for getting the access. You have to have a guide listed to access the reservation. But you don't have to hunt with them.