Fat-assed ATVers want access through WSA

[BuzzH]

Actually ten bears, once again your wrong.

Its not about me, you jackass.

Its about the health of the elk and deer herds. A healthy herd is not one that has 3-5 two-year old bulls per hundred cows. Its not a herd that has 90% of the bulls killed the first year they're legal. Its a herd that has a range of age classes well represented from old bulls to raghorns. Its also a herd that has 20-30 bulls (post season, all age classes) per hundred cows.

A herd like that gives excellent and maximum opportunity to everyone from a meat hunter (who isnt afraid to step off the ATV and hike) to the folks that would rather hunt an older bull. Its also very good for the elk herd itself.

See, unlike the average ATVer, who's more concerned about their god-given right to smack a raghorn bull and forkie mule deer, year after year, from the seat of their machine...

I care about the health of the herd first, then the needs of outfitters, hunters, fat-assed atvers, etc.

Unlimited access and ATV's have destroyed the dynamics of that elk herd...the ONLY way to bring it back is to limit access and atv's. FACT.

 

[dgibson]

Thanks for the explanations, Buzz.

 

[Ten Bears]

[ 02-11-2004, 12:45: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]

 

[Ten Bears]

And we all know how much it's all about BUZZ.., and him collecting big racks......

Sounds to me like the area is experiencing to much hunting pressure, but shutting out ATV's isn't going to be the solution you need. Why not work on shorter seasons, and six point restrictions? How many mature bulls does it take to breed 100 cows, BUZZ? How many immature bulls does it take for 1 to become a mature bull?

 

[BuzzH]

Ten bears said, "Sounds to me like the area is experiencing to much hunting pressure"

Good one Sherlock, you're brilliant!

Yeah, the atv's every ten feet have nothing to do with the huge amount of pressure on the critters...

Why limit the time people get to spend in the field each fall, when all you have to do is limit access.

Also, my plan doesnt force people to hunt only 6 points. Limit the fat-assed ATV crowd and control the access, people can CHOOSE what they want to kill without feeling bad about killing the only bull over 4 years old in the entire area.

Ten, another thing that comes in loud and clear is your lack of any comprehension of wildlife management. Having 3-5 bulls per hundred cows is not healthy, big difference between elk and ditch parrots. What kind of genetic pool does one get from the same 3 bulls? Also, how does a genetically superior bull get the chance to pass his genes on when they're whacked before they're 3 years old?

Let me ask you this:

When all the bull elk in the Gravelley range die at 2 years old...how many mature bulls does that leave you?

You really need to take a couple wildlife classes, you dont have a clue.

 

[Ten Bears]

BUZZ, as usual your attempt to redirect questions with questions does nothing. Why not make things interesting in the range and require black powder and/or archery only hunts? What proof do you have that ALL bulls in the Gravelley range die at age 2? Having a high harvest of young bulls could also indicate a high calf crop, or even a high percentage of male calves. When did I say 3-5 bulls was healthy? There again you make accusations you can't back up. What I read in this post, and most others that you rant on, is your prejudice toward others who choose to hunt (or even recreate) in a manner different then your own.

 

[BuzzH]

Ten bears, you've totally lost your mind.

I'm typing slow, so this wont confuse you, and so you can follow along.

I dont want to limit the time hunters get to spend in the field. I dont want to make the entire gravelly range a bow only area. I dont want it to be blackpowder only. I dont want it to have a six-point restriction.

All you have to do is limit the access...note I didnt say ELIMINATE access...big difference.

What has destroyed the Gravelly range is too much access, in particular access by ATV's.

If you dont think 3-5 bulls is enough for 100 cows, good, then write a letter telling the FS, BLM, and the MTFWP to limit access. Help solve the problem, rather than defend the idea of opening up the last small area that is off limits to atv's in the Gravelly Range.

Sorry you dont understand simple subjects.

 

[Bambistew]

Ten

A perfect example exists a mear 10 miles away to the west of the Gravellys, the Lee Metcalf wilderness accross the Madison river. The average age of bulls killed goes up 3 years... If you want prove this to yourself call the Fish and Game office in Bozeman they will verify this for you.

You see, the season is the same lenght, same weapons, no special restrictions draws. The only difference is there's NO FAT ASSES ON AN ATV driving all over the place...

 

[Ten Bears]

I dont want to limit the time hunters get to spend in the field. I dont want to make the entire gravelly range a bow only area. I dont want it to be blackpowder only. I dont want it to have a six-point restriction.

But it's not all about you is it?????

A perfect example exists a mear 10 miles away to the west of the Gravellys, the Lee Metcalf wilderness accross the Madison river. The average age of bulls killed goes up 3 years.

Why not settle to hunt there instead of attack the ATV use in the adjoining area. How much of the Axolotl WSA was proposed to be wilderness??? Why??? Why is the Metcalf Wilderness a wilderness????

If you dont think 3-5 bulls is enough for 100 cows, good, then write a letter telling the FS, BLM, and the MTFWP to limit access.

Because I know of areas with enormous amounts of ATV traffic that produce healthy elk herds in Idaho. So your anti-ATV solution doesn't hold much water with me. If ATV's travleing to/or through closed areas is already the problem. Then you can't make it more illegal and solve the problem, but you can create more anti hunting sentiment. By designating travel corridors, you can get greater compliance in activity. I'm not here to debate your hatreds and prejudices. Open your eyes, there's a whole big world out there.

 

[BuzzH]

Ten beers, you must be drunk.

Reread my posts. No its not about me. Theres no reason to limit hunters when all you have to do is limit the use of machines...and still have a healthy elk herd.

ATVer's have destroyed the dynamics of an elk herd in a huge portion of Montana.

You think thats right?

You arent educated enough about the Gravelly Range problem to even compare it to anything in Idaho. You're making wild-assed guesses and comparisons based on nothing but your tunnel vision of supporting ripping through the country on an atv.

Like I said, you come up with a better idea to repair the damage to the elk herds in the Gravelly Range.

The easiest way to do that is to limit ATV/ORV abuse. Close all but the main road, and problem solved. Easy as pie.

Its apparent your ignorance to the area and problems associated with the area is beyond hope.

Stick to topics and areas which you know.

 

[Ten Bears]

Prohibition worked well with liqueur laws, didn't it?????

Open your eyes BUZZ.

 

[BuzzH]

Ten bears, try to focus, and you are definately proving that "prohibition" didnt work. I could tell that by your thought process...alcohol is the only excuse you could possibly have for your "logic".

I dont want to "prohibit" anything.

You could still drive your ATV up the Gravelly Range road, you just couldnt drive it anywhere else.

I wont ask for a prohibition on your choice of transportion.

Get it???

Your comparisons keep getting weaker and weaker.

Oh, and once again, despite your best efforts, you'll continue to be limited more and more with your ATV...I win again.

 

[Ten Bears]

It's all about you. I get so tired of your ME, ME, ME, generation.

I win again.

 

[BuzzH]

No, Ten, actually I think maybe you're just tired of being a loser.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, You said, "It's all about you. I get so tired of your ME, ME, ME, generation."

Completely wrong again----as usual.

It's about what's best for hunting and fishing, and what's best for future generations.

We all know you've got some hangup about having to walk a little, but take a look around you the next time you're at Walmart. See all those obese people? See some of them riding around on electric carts? A good percentage of them are in that shape because they never exercised. Now, I know you're going to start whining about discrimination towards handicapped people, but take an honest look. Who in their right mind could argue that Americans get enough exercise?

ATVs are just another way for fatassed, lazy road hunters to avoid exercise. I doubt that even one out of 500 of them rides an ATV because they're worried about damaging a road with a full sized vehicle. And none of them are concerned about doing what's best for hunting and wildlife. It's all about ME, ME,ME. They're too lazy to walk.

I have no objection to legitimately handicapped people riding anything within reason anywhere they want.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Ten,

Because I know of areas with enormous amounts of ATV traffic that produce healthy elk herds in Idaho. So your anti-ATV solution doesn't hold much water with me.

I hate to break up the flow from the spanking that Buzz is giving you, but what area in Idaho produces healthy Elk herds with enormous amounts of ATV traffic??? Is this one of your "acclimated" areas????

 

[Ten Bears]

"If ORVs have more infrastructure to use, this will lessen the impact of operating ORVs in unauthorized areas."
"The legislature finds that off-road recreational vehicles (ORVs) provide opportunities for a wide variety of outdoor
recreation activities. The legislature further finds that the growing popularity of ORV use and the limited amount of ORV trails presents a challenge for ORV recreational users, natural resource land managers, and private landowners. The legislature further finds that many nonhighway and unpaved roads provide opportunities for ORV use."

 

[Ten Bears]

Even with those efforts, elk numbers in the areas like the Gravelly Mountains, the Madison Valley and Bridger Mountains have continued to grow in part because of poor hunting conditions brought on by drought and lack of snow.

http://www.huntandlodge.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=002100

The "real ticket" to ensuring hunters will be able to help pare down elk numbers in problem areas will be access, Mulligan said. To make that work, landowners and sportsmen must work together, he said.

The other issue the department faced was the potential for hunter congestion.

Elk populations have continued to grow in places like the Gravelly Range, where the herd is about 1,500 over state objectives, said Alt. There are close to 8,000 elk in that complex, which is mostly on public lands, he said.

Maybe if the fat a's would get off thier ATV's an hike a little they may kill a few more elk. The havest stats prove that ATV areas don't have as high of harvest as non ATV areas, even though they have more elk and in some cases fewer hunters...

Weren't you just agruing that ATV's were the problem for elk declines???? Now they don't kill enough????

 

[BuzzH]

Ten bears, learn to read, and your comprehension freaking sucks.

The issue was with every bull elk (those would be the ones with antlers so I dont confuse you), being killed before they reach 3 years old. That and bull/cow ratios that are 3-5 per hundred cows.

Again, the Gravelly Range historically produced many record class BULL elk and BUCK mule deer (the antlered ones, maybe if you read it twice you wont forget). Now you'll hunt all season and be lucky to see a buck or bull over 2 years old.

The reason is because of easy access and ATV's...mostly ATV's.

 

[Ten Bears]

"The "real ticket" to ensuring hunters will be able to help pare down elk numbers in problem areas will be access, Mulligan said. To make that work, landowners and sportsmen must work together, he said. ....

The other issue the department faced was the potential for hunter congestion."

BUZZ, personally I think your diddling in the wind.

"Elk populations have continued to grow in places like the Gravelly Range, where the herd is about 1,500 over state objectives, said Alt. There are close to 8,000 elk in that complex, which is mostly on public lands...."

And you're saying that has nothing to do with the number of bulls?