Fat-assed ATVers want access through WSA

BuzzH

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Thats right, they want access through a Wilderness Study Area...the access is too far from their back yards. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Gee, I wonder why the "fat ass" label sticks like glue?

Environmentalists oppose reopening road in Gravellys

By NICK GEVOCK Chronicle Staff Writer

Environmentalists have come out against a proposal by federal officials to reopen a four-wheel-drive road through a wilderness study area in the north end of the Gravelly Mountains.

Four environmental groups say the Bureau of Land Management is obligated by its own management plan to keep vehicles out of the roughly 8,000-acre Axolotl Lakes Wilderness Study Area.





"They can't manage it as both a off-road playground and a wilderness study area, and right now they're mandated to manage it as a wilderness area," Tim Stevens, spokesman for the Greater Yellowstone Coalition, said.

BLM officials in Dillon are considering reopening a ridgeline road known as the "stock driveway," which passes near the Axolotl Lakes about five miles south of Virginia City.

The road opening was requested by Madison County commissioners, who said area residents want a direct route from Virginia City to the top of the Gravellys.

"Rather than accessing that part of the Gravellys from their back yard, they're forced to drive around and come back to within a few miles of where they started," Rick Waldrup, Dillon BLM office recreation manager.

The commissioners said their constituents in Virginia City originally asked that the Bachelor Gulch road be reopened. Bachelor Gulch road was closed in 1982 because it was severely eroded and passes close to wetlands.

Instead, commissioners and the BLM agreed to consider reopening the stock driveway, which was closed in 1990.

Most of the 200 public comments -- including remarks from American Wildlands, the Montana Wilderness Association, GYC and the Wilderness Society -- were against the proposal, Waldrup said.

The concern is that the BLM is jeopardizing the wilderness study area by creating easy access for vehicles, which would bring more people to the area, threaten wildlife habitat and cause erosion.

Although the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks doesn't necessarily oppose the plan, the agency has some concerns, FWP Region 3 Manager Pat Flowers said.

FWP uses one of the alpine lakes in the area as a home for endangered arctic grayling, which are milked for their eggs that are then reared in a hatchery.

Flowers wrote that more people using the area could introduce disease, illegally stock other fish species or overfish the lake.

However, FWP likes the fact that the road could provide better hunting access to the northern Gravellys, Flowers said.

Madison County residents who commented on the road were about evenly split on whether the road should be reopened, Waldrup said. Reasons cited included easier access and a possible boost in tourism by creating more routes for off-road vehicles.

Virginia City resident Bill Babcock, who has mining interests in the Axolotl Lakes area, said he spends a lot of time up there. He supports reopening the road and dropping the area from wilderness consideration.

"The people that have mining claims up there have been fighting the wilderness study area for years," Babcock said.
 
Hopefully, the WSA status will stand. I know of very few places where increased OHV access has proved a boon for tourism. Hunting on the other hand... :D
 
What a bunch of frickn whinners, I know there isn't 150 people that live in Virgina City, and only a small portion oof those go to the mountains... They have to drive about 20 miles one way and about 8 miles the other way to get in there, and half that is highway!!!

I'm glad they closed that road down and protected that area. It used to be a dump for most of the white trash residents of Virgina City...

Its not like its a hard walk you can almost drive to the top of the mountain and walk to the lakes and the WSA. The first time I was in there I was 7 and remember walking about a mile and a half to get to the lakes from the end of the road. The end of the road is now about three miles from the lakes... Its only 8000 acres out of over a million :eek: , One person could cover it in two days... but lets open it up so the whole range is accessable for the poor fat asses!

Its the only WSA in the whole Gravelly/Ruby range that I'm aware of, which is pretty sad to say the least... there should be at least half of the Gravellys in a WSA or better yet wilderness.

I say close down more of the Gravellys or at least close the roads down durring hunting season to keep the Fat assed crowed from breaking the laws. The Gravellys have got to be one of the worst places for ATV abuse I have ever seen!

Why would they want to open up an area that to fat asses, and habitat destruction?

Axolotl lakes harbor axolotls, which are tiger salamanders that never loose their juvinile gills. There are only a few places in the world that this phenomenon happens (or thats what I've been told anyway, by people that know more than me). You can bet that the upper lake (Blue lake I think) that they use to raise the grayling will get hammered by the ATV's and their whitetrash hood orniments.

Also there are numberous native american archeological sites there. The Black feet used to camp there in the summer...

If we let the ATV crowd in, you can kiss that good by as well. They have proven that in Utah and other places with all the artifacts that get stolen and defaced yearly there.

The ATV/roadhunter crowd has proven time and time again that they can't handle that kind of responsiblity. Keep em out of there for good!

"Virginia City resident Bill Babcock, who has mining interests in the Axolotl Lakes area, said he spends a lot of time up there. He supports reopening the road and dropping the area from wilderness consideration.

"The people that have mining claims up there have been fighting the wilderness study area for years," Babcock said."

He can still get in there even if it is declared a wilderness... he will just have to walk... That should make his placer claim all that much more nestalgic for him.
hump.gif
Bill Babcock is a kook anyway.
 
"axolotl
Aztec 'water monster'
Aquatic larval form ('tadpole') of the Mexican salamander Ambystoma mexicanum, belonging to the family Ambystomatidae. Axolotls may be up to 30 cm/12 in long. They are remarkable because they can breed without changing to the adult form, and will metamorphose into adults only in response to the drying-up of their ponds. The adults then migrate to another pond.

Axolotls resemble a newt in shape, having a powerful tail, two pairs of weak limbs, and three pairs of simple external gills. They lay eggs like a frog's in strings attached to water plants by a viscous substance, and the young, hatched in two to three weeks, resemble the parents."

I can't find a reference to them being in WY.
[EDIT] Thought I'd better provide my source.
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/animalsplants/data/m0019277.html
 
Travel and transportation issues already raised:
1. Inconsistent travel designations and signing between agencies.
2. Inconsistent travel designations in WSAs.
3. Need more travel management and enforce it.
4. Relocate motorcycle use between Hidden and Cliff lakes to Hidden Lake bench.
5. Maintain large areas for non-motorized recreation (quiet areas) to control weeds and provide other opportunities.
6. More road maintenance and repair.
7. Groom Centennial area for snowmobiles.
8. Agency/county coordination on road plans, maintenance and expenses.
9. County is receiving monies for maintaining roads that are closed to the public.
10. More motorized recreation opportunities especially during hunting season.
11. Need for Ruby road improvements.
12. Reduce travel restrictions in the southern Gravelly Range.
13. Encourage people to report travel violations.
14. Conflict between winter logging and snowmobiling in the West Fork area.
15. Would like to see the Snowcrest remain roadless.
16. Balance between motorized and non-motorized recreational opportunities.
17. BLM needs to evaluate travel management on lands without restrictions (open) and finalize travel designations appropriate for the Ruby Mountains area, Quaking Aspen Creek and the north side of the Centennial Valley (per 1981 ORV EA).
18. Use of snowmobiles during hunting seasons.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/b-d/gravelly/chap_1/chap1-9_recreation.htm
Five areas within the Gravelly landscape, as listed below, were identified for study. Portions of three WSAs were recommended for having wilderness qualities.


1. Axolotl Lakes WSA - 7804 acres studied, 0 acres recommended by BLM.
2. Blacktail Mountains WSA - 17,479 acres studied, 10,586 acres recommended by BLM.
3. East Fork of Blacktail Deer Cr. WSA - 6230 acres studied, 0 acres recommended by BLM.
4. Centennial Mountains WSA - 21,774 acres studied, 15,615 acres recommended by BLM.
5. Ruby Mountains WSA - 27,691 acres studied, 23,054 acres recommended by BLM.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/b-d/gravelly/chap_1/chap1-9_recreation.htm
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Somebody not sharing the truth here.......
 
Bambistew pretty much summed it up.

The Gravelley range at one time had some great hunting, 20 years ago. Its pretty much a raghorn/cow shootout by ATVers. The big mule deer are also all but gone, too many fat asses killing forkies.

A truly great area with lots of potential, but a prime example of what unlimited access buys you in regard to good hunting.

Oh, and Ten Beers, the Gravelley range itself only has one WSA. The others are not in the Gravelley range, of course you'd know that if you'd ever been there. Nice try.

Unlimited access and atvers = shitty hunting.
 
Ten,

Nobody will accuse you of making up a website. Hell, they can't even accuse you of putting together a complete thought. Did you try and make a point in your posts, or are you just killing time during recess today at your 3rd grade....

Are you saying the Gravellys should not be managed as a Wilderness Study Area? And why the Hell not???
 
Ten, I don't have to prove anything to you by posting my links... I grew up less than 15 miles from Axolotal lakes... in MT not WY! I know for a fact that they are there, been there, caught some, done that, hence the name of the lake!

Those five WSA areas that you mentioned as being part of the Gravellys is wrong. The only one that is part of them is the Axolotal WSA, the others are part of either the Snow Crest Range or the Blacktail Mountains. Granted the Snow Crest is close and can be seen from the Gravellys but not part of it. Teddy Turner owns a very large chunk of land that seperates the two. The Blacktail range is close if you consider 30 miles close :eek:

So, out of that entire chunk of public land (Gravelly, Snow Crest, Blacktail Complex) all most all of it is part of a grazing lease of some sort. I don't know the exact amount of public land in acres but a rough guess would be around 1.5 million arces give or take... And the WSA is up for 79,000 of that... The rest is pretty much criss-crossed with roads and ATV tails.

The only areas that exist in the Gravelly/Snowcrest Complex with expanses big enough to be considered for WSA are basically the ones proposed. Thats pretty sad if you ask me. A whole 79,000 acres out of millions.

The big bucks and bulls are all but gone form there. MT state record elk and 2 top non-typical muledeer came from that area. Now you would be lucky to find a decent 4pt buck and maybe a three Y/O six point bull. Since all the fat asses shoot every thing they see off the road.

I laugh everytime they close down another road or trial up there, because the fat asses can't stay on the trail, or read signs...

http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/b-d/gravelly/gis_scans/maps/map20.html

Heres a map that out lines the areas up for BLM WSA study. The "roadless" area is crap. By thier definition is now "new" roads. The roadless areas have all kinds of tails and roads in them already, along with numberous ATV tails, established and rouge...

Axolotal WSA is the the top right, Centenial is at the bottom center, Ruby Mountain WSA is top center, Eastfork Blacktail WSA is the small "triangle" in the center, and the small sliver on the left is the Blacktail WSA.

All the dark lines through the "roadless" area are infact Roads that are interconcted with all kinds of ATV trils.
 
Five areas within the Gravelly landscape, as listed below, were identified for study. Portions of three WSAs were recommended for having wilderness qualities.


1. Axolotl Lakes WSA - 7804 acres studied, 0 acres recommended by BLM.
 
Ten bears, theres a big difference between the Gravelly complex, and the Gravelly Range. Get it?

The issue is whether or not fat assed ATVers need access to the ONLY WMA in the GRAVELLY RANGE, see there, NOT THE GRAVELLY COMPLEX. See the difference?

Now, quit arguing with people who know what their talking about.
 
Ten, what are you trying to argue... My dog brings more brain power to the table than you!

The WSA's are on BLM land...I know you're an idiot ;) but can't you even read a map? BLM Wilderness Study Areas... It's printed right on the map if you can't read it.

The gravelly land scape includes the, now listen to this part, The Gravelly Range, Ruby Range, Snow Crest Range, and the Blacktail Mountains. The only WSA in the GRAVELLY RANGE is the Juvinile tiger salamander a.k.a. Axolotl lakes.
 
BUZZ/GRINNER; How any acres where/are studied for wilderness status in the Axolotl WSA ?
How many acres are recommended for "wilderness" status?

BAMBIHUGGER,
Ten, I don't have to prove anything to you by posting my links...
I never made a statement that you should, concious got you, did it.
I grew up less than 15 miles from Axolotal lakes... in MT not WY (MY MISTAKE, mistyped)! I know for a fact that they are there, been there, caught some, done that, hence the name of the lake!
SO, if you want to dispute them as rare, show some foundation, but all the information I can find would lead people to believe otherwise.
 
If you guys would stop insulting each other long enough to read each other's posts I think you might just almost agree on a few things.
Bambistew said
I'm glad they closed that road down and protected that area. It used to be a dump for most of the white trash residents of Virgina City...
Buzz said
A truly great area with lots of potential, but a prime example of what unlimited access buys you in regard to good hunting.
Bambistew went on to say
The "roadless" area is crap. By thier definition is now "new" roads. The roadless areas have all kinds of tails and roads in them already, along with numberous ATV tails, established and rouge...
.
.
.
All the dark lines through the "roadless" area are infact Roads that are interconcted with all kinds of ATV trils.
Ten Bears offered this:
Five areas within the Gravelly landscape, as listed below, were identified for study. Portions of three WSAs were recommended for having wilderness qualities.


1. Axolotl Lakes WSA - 7804 acres studied, 0 acres recommended by BLM.
In other words, The Axolotl WSA was NOT recommended because it apparently lacked wilderness qualities. That just might be because of the points Bambistew and Buzz are making: too much access and damage already to be labelled as "wilderness."

If we can tentatively agree on THAT, the REAL question for you guys to debate is whether the damage is so extensive that there's no real point in making it a wilderness area, or whether continued closure will improve it to the point that it is somewhat restored. In other words, what's the point of the study if it's so screwed up already? Are they studying to see whether it can recover? Are they studying the biology of the whatever lizard? What does one have to do with the other?

If "wilderness area" simply means "no NEW roads," without closure of existing roads, what's the point? Won't they just get trashed up again after the study is over?

THESE are things I'd like answers to.
 
I can't find a reference to them being in WY.
[EDIT] Thought I'd better provide my source.
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/animalsplants/data/m0019277.html
I was under the assumption that you were trying to prove something with this... I was just pointing out that it was MT not WY...

SO, if you want to dispute them as rare, show some foundation, but all the information I can find would lead people to believe otherwise.
The condition of the salmanders is indead rare, but the species them selves are not all that rare... I said all along that they were tiger salamanders anyway...that are called axolotls.

If you would have read any of the "sources" that you found you would have come across the statement that tiger salamanders and other salamanders in the juvinile stage have been mislabled as axolotls for decades. It was assumed by many (Including the person who named the lakes) that an axolotal was a salamander that doesn't loose it juvinile gills.
 
Dgibson, good questions, and the answers are simple.

Typically, the reason the WSA are set up is to STOP increased roading and access. Usually the WMA's are set up as a way to save what little is left of an area that:

1. Has potential wilderness qualities
2. Has small areas that have somewhat limited access.

I'm sure most of the areas in question are also in a National Forest MA that seeks to preserve those areas for wilderness qualities. So, even if the areas never get actual "wilderness" protections, they're pretty secure under the Forest Plan.

Most of the WSA I've been into have roads through them, thus the WSA designation rather than "proposed wilderness".

The bottom line though, to me, is that the Ruby/Snowcrest/Blacktail areas are torn apart by ATVers. Its been a constant battle ever since I worked for the Sheridan/Ennis Ranger District in the early 90's. The FS LEO's are constantly chasing ATV violaters, all year long.

Like Bambistew said, that area has great potential for trophy quality. Historically there were top-knotch elk and mule deer there. Its a case study in too much access and ATV's ruining the age structure and over-all herd quality.

If all but the main Gravelly range road were closed to vehicle traffic, that country would be fantastic hunting for big elk and deer withing 6-7 years.

Now, the lazy atvers want the last little piece of half-way remote country to be accessible. Screw up every last bit of it, thats the attitude.
 
Like Bambistew said, that area has great potential for trophy quality. Historically there were top-knotch elk and mule deer there. Its a case study in too much access and ATV's ruining the age structure and over-all herd quality.

If all but the main Gravelly range road were closed to vehicle traffic, that country would be fantastic hunting for big elk and deer withing 6-7 years.
Making it an antler point restrictive hunt would do the same.
 
Ten bears, wake up!

Theres been a brow-tined restriction in the Gravelly Range for over 10 years. Want to take a guess as to the average age of the bulls killed there?

Start doing some research as to why the average aged bull killed there is 2 years old. Its because of access. If you limited the harvest to 6 point bulls the average age of the bulls dying there would be 3-4 years old. Why? because of all the ATVers and access would still be there.

You just dont understand the facts and you'll do and say anything to defend unlimited wide-open access.

You never cease to amaze me that you'll defend wild assumptions and false claims about areas you've never seen.

Start using your melon.

The way to promote better age structures, bull/cow ratios, etc. is to limit access. Thats the way you get a good distribution of age classes, from raghorns to 8-10 year old bulls (thats how long it takes to grow a good mule deer buck or bull elk). Making a point restriction doesnt do shit to increase trophy potential, all you do is prolong the death of 99% of the bulls for a year. Big deal, so you shoot a raghorn instead of a spike...you still have to put up with the ATV zoo. You havent made a better experience for anyone.

It just all boils down to people being too lazy to hunt elk. My philosophy is: If you cant hike in, tough shit, stay home.
 
Making a point restriction doesnt do shit to increase trophy potential, all you do is prolong the death of 99% of the bulls for a year. Big deal, so you shoot a raghorn instead of a spike...you still have to put up with the ATV zoo. You havent made a better experience for anyone.
I disagree, you've just improved the hunt for many atv bound hunters.


It just all boils down to people being too lazy to hunt elk. My philosophy is: If you cant hike in, tough shit, stay home.
And we all know how much it's all about BUZZ..... ;) ;)
 
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