Elk vs. Wolves

[TheTone]

I’ve seen CDA harvest numbers for units 5 and 6 that exceeded state harvest and if they get there way state tags would know longer be valid inside the reservation line regardless of property ownership.

Nez perce tribe does zero harvest reporting or monitoring of any type. They hammer moose when they can but again numbers don’t exist.

 

[bullbugle307]

I went down a rabbit hole on Moose not being native to Wyoming . Even looked on Petroglyphs, the earliest report I can find is Jackson Hole in 1850 . It has now become apparent to me I don't even know how long they would have to be there to be a Native species . If 170 years doesn't make them a native what does ?

A lot longer than that. I would say that they needed to be here without anthropogenic influence. I would guess that the moose that came into Wyoming were probably escaping the fact that they got shot to chit elsewhere. GYE was the only place most animals weren't going to slaughtered back then. Just like it was basically the only place left with bison and elk after they all got killed elsewhere.

 

[Carnage2011]

Yes that makes sense , Like maybe it is open enough the packs can't get established and people can shoot them ? I have only driven through there years ago .

There are multiple packs around Dillon...I hunted at least two different packs there this winter. I physically seen 24 wolves over 3 different days. Your data might be accurate from about 2002....

 

[Carnage2011]

2016 is the most recent I can find, it is Montana so no clue how they arrive at the locations .View attachment 182292

Ya I’m not blaming you. Montana isn’t really known for quality wildlife data.

 

[Trap]

I’ve seen CDA harvest numbers for units 5 and 6 that exceeded state harvest and if they get there way state tags would know longer be valid inside the reservation line regardless of property ownership.

Nez perce tribe does zero harvest reporting or monitoring of any type. They hammer moose when they can but again numbers don’t exist.

thanks

 

[88man]

A lot longer than that. I would say that they needed to be here without anthropogenic influence. I would guess that the moose that came into Wyoming were probably escaping the fact that they got shot to chit elsewhere. GYE was the only place most animals weren't going to slaughtered back then. Just like it was basically the only place left with bison and elk after they all got killed elsewhere.

something about that line shot to chit else where doesn't sit right with the concept that they were not native to Wyoming. Were they native to where they were shot to chit and escaping from?

 

[bullbugle307]

something about that line shot to chit else where doesn't site right with the concept that they were not native to Wyoming. Were they native to where they were shot to chit and escaping from?

Yeah. I don't follow your reasoning though. A brown trout was native to Germany/Europe before it got brought over here. Doesn't mean it was native to the US once it got here.

 

[Bowhunter999]

Maybe? One thing to consider is hunting seasons are pretty damn short. But people wanna go see wolves year round. And they stay in the same hotels, eat at the same restaurants etc

If you think that those who view wolves, and those who hunt big game, are even close to the same numbers, we are talking two different languages ! And that takes into account the ‘damn short’ hunting seasons.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

Last winter a local theater in Bozeman showed the documentary, The Trouble With Wolves. If you ever get the opportunity to watch it, it does an excellent job of explaining both sides of the wolf reintroduction in Yellowstone and the impact on the local ranchers.

Gonna look that up today. Hope it’s available on Netflix or hulu or something…

Edit. Just watched, very informative and unbiased as far as production.. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

“elk were way more skittish about the wolves early on and have learned to live with them over time” !

You are evidently referring to the elk which were not the ones eaten in the first place.......!?!?

Which ever way one looks at the issue, what is the benefit of a wolf population, to either the elk, elk hunting,........or to make it easy, for any purpose ? I would be interested to hear favorable reasons for such.

Like was said they’ve been dancing for thousands of years. I can think of one off the top of my head… these big ranch owners will harbor these elk and not let a soul on, or charge big money for access fees.. the wolves make these elk naturally keep moving around.. Funny you look up best place to hunt elk in MT. GALLATIN NF… where’s the highest densities of wolves and grizzly bears? Nearest YNP. Simply coincidence? I agree we need to be able to take part in conservation efforts early, not just let it get so bad the state and federal agencies have to just go euthanize them like Ferrell hogs. Absolutely disagree with just a choot em up attitude though.. I like shooting rabbits and yotes a ton, but I’d be really sad to know that the last ones been killed and well never have any more… part of being a sportsman period is the compassion for wildlife and their entire ecosystem.. you cast a stone in the creek you change the whole river…

 

[Little Big Man MT Chris]

there’s no wolves on the west side of Oregon where I live yet , I’m glad for that . I have enjoyed reading the conversation on this thread

 

[Flatbrimmer]

To help explain your question about wolves and increasing elk numbers, you have to look at it from a different angle. Wolves didn’t cause elk populations to increase. Correlation is not causation...just because two things happened at the same time doesn’t mean one necessarily caused the other. (That is equally true for elk declines and wolves too BTW). There are many other variables at the same time that are also influencing elk populations. Habitat quality, weather, state elk management, land use patterns, conservation efforts are all working on that elk population at the same time the wolves are. If most of those variables are favorable, there’s no reason the population shouldn’t grow even with concurrent predation. Ungulates (and all prey species) did evolve with heavy predation pressure, after all.

Its an oversimplified explanation, but if you are seeing wolves actually having significant impacts on an elk population, I would argue that likely means something else is out of whack, and you’ve got a bigger problem than wolves. But wolves tend to be the scapegoat because it’s easy and people like to have a bad guy.

Well said

 

[Flatbrimmer]

True. That said, a good friend of mine is a habitat ecologist. He taught me to look at sagebrush country in a whole different light.

I imagine it may be difficult to paint the picture over this forum, but it’d be cool if you’d elaborate… and this thread definitely makes me advocate for more signs at trailheads showing the noxious weeds. I’ve seen a few, but damn they should be more publicized.

 

[JLS]

I imagine it may be difficult to paint the picture over this forum, but it’d be cool if you’d elaborate… and this thread definitely makes me advocate for more signs at trailheads showing the noxious weeds. I’ve seen a few, but damn they should be more publicized.

In a nutshell:

1) is it a monoculture?
2) are there varying age structures of sagebrush?
3) what is the understory? Native grasses or cheat grass/Medusa head rye?
4) are there other forbes available?

 

[Flatbrimmer]

In a nutshell:

1) is it a monoculture?
2) are there varying age structures of sagebrush?
3) what is the understory? Native grasses or cheat grass/Medusa head rye?
4) are there other forbes available?

I literally have to go look each one of those up…. But I will learn something from it…

 

[Crimeny]

Any good science on the effects of wolves on coyote predation, also cougar and bear? I low key hate coyotes. There's too many. From our place in northern New Mexico, I can hear at least 5 distinct packs every night. Last weekend, while scouting in the Gila, I heard one wolf pack, zero coyotes, and don't remember seeing much coyote scat.

 

[Trap]

Any good science on the effects of wolves on coyote predation, also cougar and bear? I low key hate coyotes. There's too many. From our place in northern New Mexico, I can hear at least 5 distinct packs every night. Last weekend, while scouting in the Gila, I heard one wolf pack, zero coyotes, and don't remember seeing much coyote scat.

I know from experience have not read any studies that wolves HATE coyotes. Areas I lion hunt that were polluted with coyotes had the coyotes disappear once the wolves showed up. I decided quickly I preferred dealing with too many coyotes vs even a few wolves

 

[Trap]

I have seen where wolves dug bears out of dens also. All this is during lion season so pretty easy to read the story from all the tracks left. In the case of coyotes I went from being irritated seeing tons of coyote tracks to seeing 0 but coyote sign was replaced with wolf tracks and scat. There is a really good study that was done in Wyoming on wolf impact on lions. The mortality rate on the lion population was pretty severe due to wolves. Wolves preyed mainly on the kittens and wiped out like 80-90 percent. Google mountain lion wolf study Wyoming it’s a good multiple year study.

 

[Jchristians]

is it true that they released wolves from Canada into mt

 

[mtmuley]

is it true that they released wolves from Canada into mt

Yep. Big, giant mean ones. mtmuley