elk tooth question

[jerrym]

A buddy of mine got a 4X4 raghorn last week in western Montana. I told him it was probably 2.5 years old. He cut out the ivories and told me they were hollow. I have not killed many elk, but the only ones with hollow ivories were spikes. Could this elk be 1.5 years old 4X4, or are their ivories still hollow at 2.5 years old raghorns. Moosie has killed alot of spikes and raghorns he can probably answer this question Thanks for your replies. jerrym

 

[Tom]

I don't know.

But, here's another question, this teenager girl asked it:

"I was reading the topic abou the deer snort wheezing.
well i hav heard bull elk pop there jaws to show dominance when i was elk hunting in colorado and also at a zoo in new mexico. ive told peopel that and they dont usually believe me. i was wonderin if yall have heard that or even know anything about it."

????

 

[hunter cameron]

I dont think 4x4 would be a 1.5 year old he would have to be extra tiny as a 4x4 . I wouled say 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 . But I have never seen the elk so I dont know . Got any pics ?

later , hunter cameron

 

[Tom]

Here's some basic elk tooth aging info. to read.

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/agelk/agelk.htm

What about the other question, do they pop their jaws?

 

[KC]

jerrym:

The article that Tom referenced consentrates on the lower teeth, which I've never paid any attention to. But I've killed 28 elk since 1978 and collected the ivories from most of them. I have never found any to be hollow. Although some appear to be two-part joined in the middle. But I haven't seen any with a gap between the two parts. I've seen some that didn't have good roots and were therefore malformed.

Both males and females have ivories. Even calves (six months old) have tiny ivories. But I've never seen any that are hollow.

Calves (both bulls and cows) will have ivories about the size of your little fingernail, mostly covered by the gums. Just a tiny white tip sticks up above the gum line.

Yearling bulls (spikes or forks or 1x2) will have ivories about the size of your middle fingernail and these will be about half covered by gums.

Bulls 2 1/2 years old (usually raghorns 2 x3 or so) will have ivories about the size of your thumbnail and they will stick up out of the gum about 1/2". They will be all white and will not have any whorls (sort of like tree rings) showing because they have not started to wear much yet.

Bulls 3 1/2 years old (4x4 or so) will have ivories only slightly larger and they will start to show some whorls.

At 4 1/2 years old, depending on genetics, quality/quantity of food, minerals in food supply, weather, etc., bulls have 5x5 or 5x6 or small 6x6 antlers. Respectable sized 6x6 antlers show up first at 4 1/2 years old. Beyond that they get larger, longer tynes and more mass. Until they are about 10 years old, then antlers begin to diminish in size.

The ivories in bulls must continue to grow to keep pace with wearing because the the number of whorls increase and they get darker in older bulls but the teeth in old bulls are only slightly larger than those in 3 1/2 year old bulls.

The ivories in cows seem to be largest at about 2 1/2 years old. They are about the size of your middle fingernail and they are all white, with no whorls. Whorls begin to show at 3 1/2 years. Their ivories don't seem to grow enough to keep pace with wear because an old cow will have small ivories, worn at an angle with lots of dark whorls.

This is what I've seen. I'm not saying that elk are the same everywhere you go. I wonder if others have seen similar observations.

KC

 

[jerrym]

Thanks KC for the info. I guess I didn't explain to well, the roots of the tooth are hollow. I saw them the other day and they are stained brownish, but no distinct whorls. I shot a rag bull 4X5 years ago and his teeth were smaller and the roots were not hollow but the 2 spikes I have gotten were big white teeth with hollow roots. I have shot 6 cows all with smaller teeth and no hollow roots. Looks like I won't add to my total season ends Sunday. jerrym

 

[Mini Moose]

Jerrym (Mooise here) You only have 4 posts and know I shoot spikes. GEESH , What a terrible rep I have

On the Many Spikes I shot, 90% were hollow.some were fragil to all beat too. I'm not sure if it's just different around here or what. I sure can't believe that KC has killed all them dang bulls and haven't seen one ? This years elk although not a Toad, HAd good Ivories and came out easy as well.....

I'll see if I have any hollow opnes at home when I get back into town and See if I can get a picture up.

Happy hollidays !!!

 

[Sako7STW]

At one time between my Dads, Grandpa's, and my ivory's we have collected, we had over 70 sets. We had a painting done of a bull elk on a cross cut slab of Mahogany. We took most of the ivory's and inlayed them around the painting. Turned out very neat and gave it to my Dad for Christmas a few years back. We saved the others for jewlery to be made.

While going through the stack of ivory's we were able to match every single pair of them. It was interesting to see and now I can see how forensic scientists can match teeth to people. Some of the teeth were pretty messy and had not been cleaned off well so we soaked the teeth in salt water over night. So to answere your question, accept those of yearling calves all the ivory's are hollow. They have a mambrane that goes into the center of the tooth just like you and I do. It all depends on how you pull them rather you will see the membrane well or not. Like anything there is variations on the size of the membrane. We pulled membranes from I would guess 75% of them, 15% the membrane must have stayed with the elk and 10% had holes too small for the membrane to come out or had bone from the jaw making it hard to get to. A few of them were from older bulls or cows and were worn down to not much left or had cavities in them. I remember one tooth that the cavity was so big and deep that once I pulled the membrane it looked like a tube instead of a tooth almost.

When we had a ring for Dad made the jewler made cross cuts of 3-4 teeth to find the best shaped one and all were hollow.

As for the jaw clicking, have no idea but would be interesting to find the facts. I know my Mom has videos of my Dad walking up to a Cow elk trying to scare her out of the middle of the road she was laying in and when he got to about 5 feet from her she started to grind her teeth at him and snap her jaw like she was going to bite him, so I could see where they get that from.

 

[jerrym]

Thanks Sako that makes sense about the membrane. I did get a cow the last day of the season and her ivory teeth were quite small, worn, and stained with the whorls. She was good sized, and I bet an older cow. I got out a lot this year and I am glad I finally connected. Jerry