Elk Shoulder season meeting

[RobG]

"I don’t know of any shoulder season 16 minute hunts on land open to the public".

Not gonna' name landowner names, but whether or not somebody is specifically aware of it, yes it is a fact. Either I'm stating fact or I'm lying.....
Maybe it takes 25 minutes...............................

And, do you see HD 311 listed on that "data"? Last years "news"........

As you know, last year was the first for HD 311. Before that it was game damage (management, etc) hunts. I bet your 16-25 minute hunt place had game damage hunts prior to 2018 and your buddies participated in those too. Madison hunts have been going on for decades; that is your true 16 minute hunt. (Actually I'd say 2 minutes, assuming it takes 1 to drive to the elk herd at daybreak.)

2018 harvest data for 311 et al is attached for your enjoyment. 2018 shoulder season accounted for 165 total elk in 311. A bit more than twice that much was harvested during the general season.

 

[onpoint]

Don't know what point you're attempting to make here Rob.
Game damage hunts - another great thing, the way it was utilized for a long time......
And if it's that shoulder season ain't much different than the old "late hunts", I think/hope you know some of the glaring differences.
I do.
And I'm guessing so do a fair number of others...........

 

[RobG]

Don't know what point you're attempting to make here Rob.
Game damage hunts - another great thing, the way it was utilized for a long time......
And if it's that shoulder season ain't much different than the old "late hunts", I think/hope you know some of the glaring differences.
I do.
And I'm guessing so do a fair number of others...........

I was answering your question about 311.

My other point was the difference between shoulder and late hunts regarding the numbers harvested and the sport of it. I don't know of the former, but the latter could be pretty pathetic for late hunts. Yes, the way they are administered is dramatically different, but the number of dead animals is really the main metric. What other glaring differences are you referring to?

BTW, I didn't see you at the meeting on Thursday. If you care, Colton is looking for support for his proposal to go back to management seasons in some districts.

 

[noisy]

I've probably hunted 20 days during shoulder seasons over the past 3 years, and killed one elk during that time. Somebody please point me toward the 16-minute hunt lol. Seems like regular elk hunting to me--the elk have figured it out and are difficult to find--but I guess it depends on what district you're in. I've mostly been in 291/293.

The intro of shoulder seasons has coincided with an influx of wolves in some areas of 291/293, so that makes it hard to figure out what's influencing what, but the elk definitely are more on the move, more dispersed, and will not hang around on private land where hunting is allowed. I guess you could say the program has effectively "hazed" them off the private land where hunting is allowed. They definitely don't stand around in a pasture waiting to be shot. I read a quote from FWP claiming that hazing was exactly what they wanted to happen, more so than reducing elk numbers. I don't think most landowners care how many elk there are if they aren't feeding in their pastures.

I will tell you about a conversation I had a few days ago with a rancher who has for years charged a trespass fee to hunt his land. He borders a couple places I have permission to hunt (non BMAs), places that don't charge. I called and asked him what his trespass fee was because I was curious--if it was only a couple hundred dollars, and I saw elk on his land (as I have several times, including a couple times this season), I might consider paying it for a freezer full of elk meat.

Immediately he was angry. "You mean that bumper season?! They never should have done that! It starts waaaay too early and ends waaaay too late. The elk are all gone--and all that's around are wolves! You want to shoot wolves, feel free." Then he hung up on me.

The way he was triggered make it sound like, between the shoulder season hunters on nearby land and the recent influx of wolves, it all combined to mess up his revenue stream during the general season.

Anyway, not sure what any of this means in the big picture, just thought I'd share my experiences.

 

[SAJ-99]

I guess you could say the program has effectively "hazed" them off the private land where hunting is allowed.

JSB, you make a lot of good points. I think a lot of hunters might be more in the pro-shoulder season category if the public landowners who have the largest problem with elk allowed public hunting in the regular season. I suspect that a sizable portion of landowners use the shoulder season to allow relative to fill their freezer. Some of the Block Mgmt landowners complain the elk disappear during hunting season and shelter on pvt land that doesn't allow hunting, only to reappear in the winter. There is no effective way to "haze" them off the land permanently. Elk will go where they find the best feed. Maybe the State or BLM should plant sections of public land in alfalfa or alternate cattle grazing segments to keep some areas with higher levels of feed.
I would argue that the acceptable elk population levels that landowners can tolerate are WAY lower than the populations levels hunters want. If the shoulder season reduced the population by 10%, do we really think we would hear any landowner say "Last year there were 20 elk eating off my hay stack and this year there is only 18. I'm fine with it now. Mission accomplished." There are a lot of things to balance and any solution will probably level everyone a little unhappy.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

What gets my blood boiling is John Vore's quote that his department is out of ideas and doesn't know what else to do. Well, here's a hare brained idea: follow the god damn elk management plan for once. It says right in there on page 56 that privately harbored elk should be excluded from objective. Lack of access to these private harbors has been the crux of the problem from the start and we wouldn't be in this mess had we actually followed the plan as written.

I read page 56 and couldn’t find this? Is it on a different page? Was trying to show a friend as we were discussing then propose changes for next year.

Thanks

 

[tjones]

I read page 56 and couldn’t find this? Is it on a different page? Was trying to show a friend as we were discussing then propose changes for next year.

Thanks

It’s page 55 and Vore knows it’s there. It has been used in HD270.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Thanks!

 

[Big Foot]

MT FWP is open for comment on shoulder seasons:

http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/publicComments/2019/biennialSeasonSetting.html

Here is the season setting meeting schedule as well (see attached)