Elk around Kalispell

[Zootownelk]

Congrats on your move- you're going to be in an outdoorsman paradise (Montana as a whole)! Not sure if you hunt waterfowl being from Minnesota, but I was happily surprised to learn that Montana has EXCELLENT waterfowl hunting as well. I lived in Missoula for many years, but would do most of my elk hunting in WY with my uncle and dad. I live in the midwest now, and miss the exceptional outdoor activities out west and the public land!

 

[----]

Good grief, they couldn't find a single elk in the Danaher. That's messed up. The Danaher didn't burn either.

I'm really bummed out to see that dropoff in wt buck harvest from 2016-2018. Conditions were pretty good this year, there's no reason the buck harvest shouldn't have been inline with the last few years. I think the last two winters took their toll. I was really hoping to make one of the whitetail meetings they held, but wasn't able to. I'm glad they axed some doe hunting for a while.

As far as FWP is concerned though, the elk in region 1 are the "good elk", because they're below objective. And the rest of the state where they're over objective are "bad elk". I've been to multiple meetings where they used this terminology. They'll get all wrapped up in pretzels coming up with ways to get the over objective elk down, but won't lift a finger to get the under-objective elk back up.

3-4 years ago, one of the head regional biologists is quoted in the Missoulian that elk are soon to be extirpated from a valley that had traditionally wintered 500 elk. Since then, they've continued to have 11 week long seasons in this unit. They watched it happen and did nothing to stop it.

 

[Nameless Range]

At this point, I question whether its even worth flying anymore.

HD Area Cows Calves Ylg Adult Tot Uncl Total Calves per 100 cows Bulls per 100 Cows

150 Danaher Meadows 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A

Youngs Cr 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A

Basin* 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A

Big Prairie - FlatIron 59 6 2 0 2 0 67 N/A N/A

Burnt Cr & White River Flats 79 4 0 0 0 0 83 N/A N/A

Black Bear - Big Salmon 27 2 0 5 5 13 52 N/A N/A

HD 150 Total 165 12 2 5 7 13 202 7 4

140 Bunker Cr 0 0 0 3 3 0 3 N/A N/A

Spotted Bear Mtn - L. Twin Cr 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A

Dry Parks 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A

HD 140 Total 1 1 0 3 3 0 3 N/A N/A

150/140 Grand Total 166 13 2 8 10 13 202 8 6

Wow. I grew up reading and rereading the hunting stories of Howard Copenhaver, and many of those places are memorialized as elk hunting paradises in his books.

I am somewhat ignorant when it comes to those places. Is the chief reason those numbers are so low due to the overhunting by people that has occurred there? Sorry to stray from the OP but those are shocking.

 

[tjones]

The FWP meetings can be sometimes entertaining. Darby can be a real hoot.

I have been to lots of meeting in R2 and different towns. There is always the rally cry to kill wolves, and more could he harvested. But generally the guy doing the screaming is also the guy doing nothing. I have seen it many times, a whole string of guys beating there fists on the table wanting more wolf harvest and more tags. Ask the same guys how many tags they bought they will say 1, ask them how many days the spent hunting just wolves they will say none. The same guy goes to maybe one meeting a year. All the while demanding something be done, amazing.

R1 is in tough shape for sure, hopefully its not too late to get a handle on the decline.

 

[Gerald Martin]

People tend to think of NW MT as a monolithic block of habitat. Different species thrive or decline for different reasons in different areas. IMO, the decline of elk in the Bob Marshal is due to predators and hard winters. Hunting pressure is relatively insignificant there. The decline in whitetail deer comes on the back of two harsh winters in a row. Predators found easier pickings during the past two winters so they are doing well.

I attended the FWP meeting for deer in Trout Creek. The numbers given for the causes of deer mortality was 60% hunter killed, 15% predators, and 25%weather and unknown for bucks. For does it was 25% hunters, 35% predators, and 40% weather and unknown.

As far as the need for more thinning I don’t think I concur. It is my observation from running cats, that deer and elk to a certain degree depend on the thermal cover provided by a heavy tree canopy to survive. The thinned areas are devoid of game during heavy snow and cold temps. A ridge or two away, the deer load up under the trees.

 

[BuzzH]

Good grief, they couldn't find a single elk in the Danaher. That's messed up. The Danaher didn't burn either.

I'm really bummed out to see that dropoff in wt buck harvest from 2016-2018. Conditions were pretty good this year, there's no reason the buck harvest shouldn't have been inline with the last few years. I think the last two winters took their toll. I was really hoping to make one of the whitetail meetings they held, but wasn't able to. I'm glad they axed some doe hunting for a while.

As far as FWP is concerned though, the elk in region 1 are the "good elk", because they're below objective. And the rest of the state where they're over objective are "bad elk". I've been to multiple meetings where they used this terminology. They'll get all wrapped up in pretzels coming up with ways to get the over objective elk down, but won't lift a finger to get the under-objective elk back up.

3-4 years ago, one of the head regional biologists is quoted in the Missoulian that elk are soon to be extirpated from a valley that had traditionally wintered 500 elk. Since then, they've continued to have 11 week long seasons in this unit. They watched it happen and did nothing to stop it.

Randy,

It is sad, and its always entertaining to read things like its a lack of logging that is causing this. Its not...a huge part of the Scapegoat/Bob has burned, habitat isn't the issue.

Its also entertaining to listen to guys in the 20-35 year old range make the claim that "there never were many elk in___________fill in the blank", usually NW Montana, Western Montana and the Bob/Scapegoat.

They aren't coming up with that chit on their own, the MTFWP is lying to them to excuse horrific elk management. Our favorite biologist in the Blackfoot would be one of them...clueless doesn't begin to describe that situation.

Also, in a discussion with one of the lead biologists, it was stated that "We know what to do when we have too many elk, but don't know what to do when we don't have enough".

That's frightening. Even more frightening is that massive expanses of what many considered the best elk hunting in Montana, has elk numbers that are nearly functionally extinct. Yet, like you said, still 11 weeks of pounding, and in some areas pounding those elk much longer via shoulder seasons.

I'm of the opinion that its well past time to completely shuffle the deck at the MTFWP...I mean clean house and start over, from the top down.

With numbers like those described in the data above, Wyoming biologists would be chitting bricks, closing seasons completely, and probably looking for a new job.

Yet, the same people that have watched this happened for 20-30+ years in Montana are still there, still doing nothing, and grasping any straw to place the blame. No excuse, its 100% a lack of management.

Tragic...and this should be written about and documented on exactly how not to "manage" wildlife.

 

[BuzzH]

People tend to think of NW MT as a monolithic block of habitat. Different species thrive or decline for different reasons in different areas. IMO, the decline of elk in the Bob Marshal is due to predators and hard winters. Hunting pressure is relatively insignificant there. The decline in whitetail deer comes on the back of two harsh winters in a row. Predators found easier pickings during the past two winters so they are doing well.

I attended the FWP meeting for deer in Trout Creek. The numbers given for the causes of deer mortality was 60% hunter killed, 15% predators, and 25%weather and unknown for bucks. For does it was 25% hunters, 35% predators, and 40% weather and unknown.

As far as the need for more thinning I don’t think I concur. It is my observation from running cats, that deer and elk to a certain degree depend on the thermal cover provided by a heavy tree canopy to survive. The thinned areas are devoid of game during heavy snow and cold temps. A ridge or two away, the deer load up under the trees.

Is that what the FWP is claiming? Bob Marshal elk are suffering severe winter mortality? I guess they must be referring to the ones with no legs...good grief. Maybe they can scrounge up some pictures of those winter killed elk in fantasyland...that's where most of their "data" comes from.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Tragic...and this should be written about and documented on exactly how not to "manage" wildlife.

This era may result in a new wildlife management historical document resulting from the Elk Management Plan ... entitled "BACK TO THE BRINK."

 

[MTGomer]

This should be mandatory reading for the FWP supporters and apologists.

We need a foundation to advocate on behalf of elk in the Rocky Mountains.

 

[Irrelevant]

I'm reading this as a complete outsider. Why are the counts so low? I too have read older stories about hunting those general areas and it seemed like the hunting was good to great then. How would FWP even go about improving the populations of elk?

 

[Straight Arrow]

Thick public forests with little logging activity.

It seems everyone in the west would like to see an end to frivolous litigation blocking viable logging and other forest management. The timber industry could use a shot in the arm. However, the scratchy broken record touting "logging the way out of wildfires", logging to significantly improve wildlife management, and logging to solve the unemployment (absurd in view of record low unemployment data) plight of western families is a hollow mantra. As the data and discussion of this thread shows, other wildlife management strategies are much more viable and viewed by many as critically needed.

 

[----]

I'm reading this as a complete outsider. Why are the counts so low? I too have read older stories about hunting those general areas and it seemed like the hunting was good to great then. How would FWP even go about improving the populations of elk?

Too many predators, of both the two legged and the four legged type.

Things that could help-
-limited entry.
-stop hunting cows, period.
-stop hunting elk, period.
-state-issued predator management.

But honestly, it's probably 10 years too late for most of it. Here's the quote I mentioned above-

“I don’t know that we have the capability to try to prevent the decline beyond the threshold,” Thompson confesses. “I don’t know if they will bounce back. Most likely, we’ll always have elk in that area, but their numbers may remain low.”

Thompson says the low numbers can likely be attributed to wolf predation.

“While it didn’t turn out to be the wolf in the Bitterroot, the lower Clark Fork has a high density of them,” Thompson explains. “Just on the other side of the mountains, Idaho had a similar issue. A study there found wolf predation to play an important role in lower elk numbers.”

I hate linking to gohunt but I can't find the original Missoulian article-
https://www.gohunt.com/read/bitterroot-elk-rise#gs.mpasOk3b

 

[wannabemountainman]

From all I hear I think something can be done to improve the area and save the Elk, Deer, and Moose. I definitely want to be part of that if something was to happen, which I think should.

 

[Sytes]

From all I hear I think something can be done to improve the area and save the Elk, Deer, and Moose. I definitely want to be part of that if something was to happen, which I think should.

Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
Quality organizations exist such as RMEF: https://www.rmef.org/ There are great volunteer opportunities and as a member, there are great benefits - with the base supporting the best organization focused on Elk.

 

[BuzzH]

From all I hear I think something can be done to improve the area and save the Elk, Deer, and Moose. I definitely want to be part of that if something was to happen, which I think should.

Good luck with that...

Myself and a whole bunch of other Residents/past Residents have been trying to get some changes made for 30+ years. If changes are made, its not to improve hunting or increase wildlife populations.

Get back to me in 5, 10, 15 years when its still the status quo and nothing has been done.

Opportunity over management...for decades and decades.

 

[MTGomer]

What is RMEF doing or been doing in R1?

 

[BuzzH]

What is RMEF doing or been doing in R1?

Why would it be up to the RMEF to do anything?

I don't buy my Montana license from RMEF, I buy it from the MTFWP. The theory there is that I'm paying for the license so the MTFWP can manage the wildlife.

What you're suggesting, would be the same as saying that the MTFWP should be held accountable for the contents of the Bugle Magazine.

This isn't the RMEF's problem to solve, at all. Their mission is not to manage the State of Montana's elk herd. If its going to be, then chit-can the MTFWP and hire the RMEF to manage elk in Montana.

The RMEF has nothing to do with this elk situation in Montana...period.

 

[Straight Arrow]

What is RMEF doing or been doing in R1?

Review the mission and programs of RMEF. Proactive measures to ensure the future of elk and other wildlife have primarily served to acquire or enhance habitat.
The wildlife issues in R1 have little to do with habitat but moreover involve wildlife management strategies, from what I can determine.

RMEF is a great organization, but it's not up to that organization to remedy the wildlife problems in R1.

 

[Southern Elk]

Review the mission and programs of RMEF. Proactive measures to ensure the future of elk and other wildlife have primarily served to acquire or enhance habitat.
The wildlife issues in R1 have little to do with habitat but moreover involve wildlife management strategies, from what I can determine.

RMEF is a great organization, but it's not up to that organization to remedy the wildlife problems in R1.

Well said.

 

[MTGomer]

Yep, FWP manages elk as poorly as possible. It happens in the backyard of a foundation that claims to be an elk foundation, they say nothing, do nothing. Their silence comes across as approval.

Somebody mentioned to join the RMEF as a response to what could make a difference in this issue. I ask what they do and RMEF lackys pile on. It’s typical. It’s easier than answering an unanswerable question.
‘We focus on habitat’ is the easy way out. They support soulder seasons, which isn’t a habitat issue.
There’s no excuse for an elk organization with a valuation of over 15 million to sit quietly while their home state destroys the elk herd.

The minuscule MWF has been more vocal on elk topics in the last 10
months than RMEF has in 20+ years.
I’ve never given them a penny and never will. Unpopular opinion on this forum. Oh well.
The greatest elk herd in the world declined by 85% and RMEF offered nothing. 24 years since that started they still offer nothing in Montana.

For the size of the org they are ineffective.



*Take my money, send calendar and bugle magazine*