A buddy and I were discussing the bonus point issue the other day and he brought up a good thought. Do you guys think once the current wave of hunters that have been in the game since points were invented start to quit hunting that it will have any major effect on point creep. Not say it will solve point creep but it is an interesting situation to ponder about.
Effect of Aging Hunters on Bonus Points
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8andcounting
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No - I think there is more people getting into it every year
jryoung
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One would have to assume with the general demographics of hunters that this would be true. But, there are many other variables without seeing the spread of points amongst age class you'll never be able to quantify the significance.
Carnage2011
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It will definitely have an effect. I don't know how significant it will be, but it definitely can't hurt. There are a lot of old timers with a lot of points.....
LopeHunter
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Point creep is minimally impacted by death and disability. Aging will result in more hunters falling out of the WY non-resident sheep pools than drawing in their lifetime but this is a very, very slow attrition related to aging.
Mortality rates for hunters in their 60s is around 1/4 of 1% a year and is around 1% a year for hunters in their 70s. If you overlay this with the size of the point pools and see how many years that pool represents of NR sheep tags then see that the majority of a pool that is Max-10 points will never draw but is not because the current age of the point pool is old but rather even a 20 year old is not likely to draw in that pool.
The biggest attrition for the pools several points below Max will be when hunters encounter a financial setback and can no longer afford to "invest" for a couple of years and lose points. Recessions, divorces, lawsuits, disability, etc will cull the herd but no amount of culling by those factors or aging will result in the majority of the current 10 point NR WY sheep pool ever be awarded a sheep tag in WY.
Mortality rates for hunters in their 60s is around 1/4 of 1% a year and is around 1% a year for hunters in their 70s. If you overlay this with the size of the point pools and see how many years that pool represents of NR sheep tags then see that the majority of a pool that is Max-10 points will never draw but is not because the current age of the point pool is old but rather even a 20 year old is not likely to draw in that pool.
The biggest attrition for the pools several points below Max will be when hunters encounter a financial setback and can no longer afford to "invest" for a couple of years and lose points. Recessions, divorces, lawsuits, disability, etc will cull the herd but no amount of culling by those factors or aging will result in the majority of the current 10 point NR WY sheep pool ever be awarded a sheep tag in WY.
NYyotekiller
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I've thought the same thing.
It would be interesting to see the age of guys that have max points or the most points of anyone. So many variables involved though.
It would be interesting to see the age of guys that have max points or the most points of anyone. So many variables involved though.
I don't think that will be the case, but maybe western states will reach the tipping point of pricing/opportunity where more and more NRs will feel it is no longer a good use of their time/patience/money. The older I get, my tipping point for time and money gets higher each year, where I doubt the states I apply in will ever get me to stop. As for patience, that gets less each year, but I started this multi-state gig 25 years ago, so I've had my chances and that helps me find more patience than if I had not had so many great opportunities.
A good article with some excellent visuals to illustrate point creep today and what is ahead. - https://www.gohunt.com/read/skills/...can-you-overcome-it-and-much-more#gs.ALzJjUln
A good article with some excellent visuals to illustrate point creep today and what is ahead. - https://www.gohunt.com/read/skills/...can-you-overcome-it-and-much-more#gs.ALzJjUln
ImBillT
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I do think that as hunters age they’ll be more likely to “burn their points” on hunts they hadn’t originally saved them for, but I don’t think it will result in the points required to go on a particular hunt to drop significantly. I think it will actually just make the rest of the hunts start requiring more points while the glory hunts will level out at a very high number. Point systems don’t make anyone significantly more likely to draw a hunt in their lifetime, or to drawnit more times in their lifetime, than if there were no point system at all. The only thing point systems do is insure that if you ever do draw a glory hunt, you’ll be too old to get around the way you would have at 25 or 30.
Everything reaches a point of negtive returns. I dont see age as the variable that slows down point creep. Howver I do see money as that variable. As cost continue to rise and availability and acess decline prices will increase. Lack of access and the cost of acess is the number one reason for poor hunter retainment east of the Mississippi....and its coming west.
As we continue to monatize wild and access too it we hasten out demise. Give it 50 year and you wont see many hunters that arent in the top 25 percent of income.
As we continue to monatize wild and access too it we hasten out demise. Give it 50 year and you wont see many hunters that arent in the top 25 percent of income.
BuzzH
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I think there are 2 separate discussions to be had.
Its one thing to just say, "use your points on a lesser unit" when you're talking about deer, elk, and pronghorn.
Little different deal with sheep, moose, goat, bison, etc.. Where does a person spend, say 10-12 points in Wyoming, to hunt a lesser sheep or moose unit? New applicants are totally hosed other than a lucky random tag, they wont even catch the "lesser" units.
Bottom line, the point systems are having a drastic impact on sheep, moose, goat, bison...but not the same on elk, deer, and pronghorn where a person has reasonable options.
Its one thing to just say, "use your points on a lesser unit" when you're talking about deer, elk, and pronghorn.
Little different deal with sheep, moose, goat, bison, etc.. Where does a person spend, say 10-12 points in Wyoming, to hunt a lesser sheep or moose unit? New applicants are totally hosed other than a lucky random tag, they wont even catch the "lesser" units.
Bottom line, the point systems are having a drastic impact on sheep, moose, goat, bison...but not the same on elk, deer, and pronghorn where a person has reasonable options.
LousyResident
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I think this is likely to be the case. I don't have points anywhere, am 32 years old, been hunting most of my life, and trying to decide whether the point game is really worth it. There have been several posts here lately where people talk about getting started only to be told that they're basically too late by the time they're my age.
If anything, I'm likely to start building points just to the 3 - 5 point range for slightly better hunting opportunities. I think there will be a shift towards that mindset for us "new" guys and away from the mindset of maximum point, once in a life, dream unit hunts.
I always wonder at what age will guys just say F it and drop out on points for the big 3? Even if a guy has 20+ points but he's now 75 or 80 and couldn't even do a guided horseback sheep hunt, would he still want to get the tag anyways because "damnit, I've been putting in for over 20 years, I deserve that tag." Or does he say, "there's no way I could shoot one even if I had the tag so I'm going to let someone else get the tag." I suppose it's different for each person but I do wonder about that quite a bit...
BuzzH
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Good question, but I can say I'll stay in until I'm dead. What one has to consider, and trust me I have, if I get to the age that I cant pack my backpack anymore I wont be surrendering my tag to someone else. What I will have is the income to be able to hire myself a couple Sherpas to pack everything, and if thats what it takes for me to kill a sheep, moose, whatever...so be it.
Thankfully not in that boat yet, but I can see the handwriting on the wall. There's a reason I've saved/invested 20+% of my gross income for the last 25 years, and I assure you its not to pay pharmaceutical companies and depends manufacturers.
Not to mention that I am very fortunate to have already drawn moose x2, goat, desert sheep and I'm in a good place to draw a few more of the big 3.
I just cant help feel that I have let down the hunters younger than me. I would say that my generation of hunters, in their 40-60 age range, have done the future a great disservice by not more aggressively opposing point schemes that take a large percentage of tags off the table for all but those on the ground floor of these schemes.
There are no clear ways out of this one without a serious taking from someone.
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Auburnpack
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I predict several old farts in their 80s and 90s will mysteriously make it up mountains to go hunting w their 25-30 year old grandkids! Haha.
ImBillT
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The hunting community has two options.
A) Get younger hunters into hunting before they get into politics and accept what they choose to do with point systems.
B) Keep younger hunters out of hunting, so that when they get into politics they ask themselves why so many tax dollars are spent on hunting and public land access when those dollars could be spent on universal healthcare, or free college, or tax breaks, or infrastructure, or national defense.
What do point systems do for the next generation of potential hunters? Like it or not, those are the people that will be making the decisions in the future.
A) Get younger hunters into hunting before they get into politics and accept what they choose to do with point systems.
B) Keep younger hunters out of hunting, so that when they get into politics they ask themselves why so many tax dollars are spent on hunting and public land access when those dollars could be spent on universal healthcare, or free college, or tax breaks, or infrastructure, or national defense.
What do point systems do for the next generation of potential hunters? Like it or not, those are the people that will be making the decisions in the future.
ImBillT
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Yep. Their grandkids that will probably be locked out of any similar opportunity unless someone started buying points for them at 10-12 years old.
naturebob
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I will be 63 in Sept. and quitting everywhere except home state of AZ.i have 10 Elk in wyo. I am waiting till next year and get what I can, Did deer last year and lope 3 years ago. Gonna do My 3 in Colo. deer this year and Be done. AZ. has enough for me and I will continue N. Mexico No bonus points . If they start I'm done. Also we have Coues in Mexico Iv'e done that 5 times if You don't mind spending a little $ but Guarenteed tag.......GO Get young guys...........BOB!
VikingsGuy
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Ponzy schemes always fail - just a matter of when and how much damage is done in the process.
SandyCreek
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I can't even justify a moose application in wyoming anymore with the cc fees.. my only hope will ever be a random tag and the odds vs $$ has me saving to go to alaska.. maybe more people my age will start to realize we are P*ssing up the rope for the big 3 in most cases. which really sucks.
I think prices will have more effect on point creep than old guys croaking. There is a price/return ratio that seems to be shifting and those cheap bonus points are not as cheap as they used to be so like me, I do a little more math and figure if the odds are worth it anymore at my age. I have walked away from over 30 points combined in 3 states for moose. It just isn't worth it anymore IMO and if I really wanted to fulfill that moose itch I would head to Newfoundland or Canada. But in the end, I do not think point creep will never turn around for a lot of species, mainly the big 3
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