Dubya Loses Suit, We May Now Get Cutthroats Protected

[JoseCuervo]

Poor, poor Dubya.... Always seeming to lose the suits... Thankfully there are Judges that help us hunters and fishermen protect our heritage to hunt and fish in the West on Public Lands.

Judge says cutthroat trout may need protection


Yellowstone cutthroat trout may need federal protection to ensure the species' survival, a federal judge has ruled.

U.S. District Judge Phillip S. Figa in Colorado said Friday that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in 2001 illegally rejected a petition to designate the fish as threatened on the endangered species list.

Saying there was “substantial evidence” that a federal listing may be warranted, Figa ordered the FWS to undertake a yearlong comprehensive review of the Yellowstone cutthroat and reconsider whether to apply federal protections.


Environmental groups praised the decision not only for criticizing procedural steps taken by FWS but also for addressing “substantive” issues over the status of Yellowstone cutthroat.

“He basically affirmed every one of our arguments,” said Noah Greenwald, a scientist with the Center for Biological Diversity, one of the groups that sued over the government's rejection.

Chuck Davis, endangered species litigation coordinator at the FWS regional office in Denver, said he believes that the agency took the right steps in its 2001 decision but added that, if the ruling is not appealed, the government will comply with the judge's order.

“We're disappointed. We thought we had a very good finding,” Davis said.

Yellowstone cutthroat trout, one of 14 subspecies, once occupied vast stretches of Montana, Wyoming, Idaho and smaller patches of Utah and Nevada.

The fish has been eliminated from about 90 percent of its historic habitat and today uses about 4,700 miles of streams in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho.

The trout's stronghold lately has been Yellowstone Lake in Yellowstone National Park.

But in recent years, trout in the park have struggled against invasive lake trout, whirling disease and the effects of drought. Although park officials estimate there are still 1 million spawning-age cutthroat in the lake, they have raised concerns about the fish in the face of recent threats.

In 1998, several environmental groups filed a petition with the FWS to extend federal protections to the Yellowstone cutthroat. The groups said the trout was likely to go extinct in all or some of its habitat.

In 2001, the FWS rejected the petition, saying it didn't contain enough information and that some of the information was outdated.

Figa, nominated by President Bush and appointed last year, said the FWS was “arbitrary and capricious” in turning down the petition. Not only did the agency err in not using the right standards in making its decision, it also wrongly relied on future plans by state agencies to protect the fish, Figa said.

He also said the petition and other documents “credibly indicates that listing of the YCT as a threatened species is warranted because of loss of habitat.”

Figa ordered the FWS to take a 12-month comprehensive look at the status of Yellowstone cutthroat.

Greenwald said the ruling is an important step in the survival of Yellowstone cutthroat trout, which are a food source for more than 40 other species.

“There is no doubt that this fish plays a key role in contributing to the overall health of all the wild species in and around Yellowstone,” he said.

Davis said FWS will do what it can to comply with the judge's order but said its budget has already been approved by Congress and likely doesn't include funds to complete an intensive study of Yellowstone cutthroat.

“Right now we don't have it,” Davis said.

The other groups that filed a lawsuit against the FWS were Biodiversity Conservation Alliance, Pacific Rivers Council and Ecology Center.

 

[Delw]

Actually these trout wether endangered or not still are going to have problems , a few things is due to the growth around yellowstone and a major factor being the drought and tempature rising in the lake.( we will call that due to the green house effect caused by snowmobiles just for you gunner, that way it will make you happy)

I believe the yellowstone cutthroat trout populations started declining in 1986, this wasnt due to the goverement this was due to mother nature the drought being one and the other was a sudden increase in tempature rise of the lake. From what I have read and understand IN 1983-1985 scientist did some research on these trout as to why they were dieing and some of the spawning areas have become not usuable.

Incase you dont know the yellowstone trout is the biggest population of cuttthroats in the world that actually spawn in a lake.
National geographic has done 3 reports( on tv) on this lake and this subspecies of cuttthroats in the last 15 years. All of which concluded by scientific evidence that the lake was actually heating up. We had to do a paper in highschool on these trout also. Of course not to mention numerous studys by the local fish biologist.

So gunner as usual you blame bush for something that he has no control, and something that you have no idea about. But as you being the whiny ass liberal that you are and looking for a bush bashing at every chance you can get, of course you would say something like this. all the lawsuits in the world wont help these trout if mother nature is in control.

Just because they lost a lawsuit doesnt mean that its going to help the population of these trout. more than likely this lawsuit is and putting them on the endangerd list is just a waste of time and money. Kinda like the crap you post.

The reason for the lake heating up is due to the thinning of plates that separate the magma from the crust of the earth. If I remember correctly this was noted by sciencetist after a major earthquak in 1984?

As I think about it more you must have seen these national geographic studys , thats the only way that you can link it to bush in that small narrow mind of yours, you see the animated pictures they gave showed the magma and gas's in red pushing closer to the lake blue so it must be bush pushing closer to liberals.


Hey gunner the sky is falling too so I am betting its bush's fault again
Dude you need some serious help. |oo
Before you start rambling like you usually do when someone questions your lack of skills do some research on on it.

Delw

 

[BigHornRam]

Delw,

Don't forget all the lake trout in lake jellystone that are hammering the cuts. I think Bush snuck a bucket of them in there back when he was awol from the guard!

 

[ELKCHSR]

I am just wondering,
Why can't we put a bunch of this stock in cold storage (Cryogenics sp.), the scientists have started doing that with a lot of animals that are having problems.
Or transplant some into high land lake mountains where the temps stay cold.
There are plenty of those around and they are pretty much land locked so the species can't escape, but live and pass on their genes.
Just not in their original area. That way when Yellowstone collapses into it's cauldera (sp), they can be brought back when every thing cools down...

 

[BuzzH]

The problem isnt just with Yellowstone or Yellowstone lake, this is the problem: The fish has been eliminated from about 90 percent of its historic habitat and today uses about 4,700 miles of streams in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho.

If the fish were still present in 50-75% of its historic habitat there wouldnt be an issue, and the limit would be ten a day.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Then it is time to start moving them around again, every thing else does, heck the gene pool for the wolf/griz population today more than likely doesn't match the originals in these regions, they were moved here from elsewhere.
Other animals have been brought back from unlikely sources; one I saw last night was one of the species of Tigers. They are being put back into their original surroundings from places like zoos around the world.
What stops us from doing it with any sort of fish?
Until the native areas get back to normal that these animals can live in, they could be moved to places that will support them and their populations a lot better and in an area that wouldn't have any or much impact on any of the other wild life’s in the area...
There are a lot of land locked lakes in the Cascades for example that would house them just fine and be a natural holding pen so the species don't go extinct

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

How do we get them back into their historic habitat? Kill off all the non natives such as the brown or lake trout that have out competed them? Were is their historic habitat in Idaho? The Snake?

 

[Delw]

Buzz, it is my unsderstanding that the yellowstone cuttthroat trout and are completly differnet subspecies of cuttthroat and theya re only found in yellowstone lake and that riversystem that goes into the lake.

They are also very unique due to there size, where as a normal river/lake cuttthroat will run about 1/2-2max lbs this subspecies of cutts run about 2-5 lbs and if I remember correctly they even get bigger. the only thing close to comparison on another subspeice of cuttthroats are the sea run cutts you will find in washington bc and parts of alaska, see run cuts get a tad bigger than the landlocked ones in yellowstone.


Delw

 

[BuzzH]

Delw,

I dont think you're right about that, yellowstone cuts are found (and native) in more than just Yellowstone lake.

Also, most species of cuts get bitter than 2-5 pounds, Snake River, West-slope, etc. etc. etc. I've caught Snake river and West slopes well over 3 pounds.

 

[Delw]

Buzz

I might be incorrect on the size's(They are average sizes), but I know that what made the cutts in yellowstone lake more unique was the size, and there was also one more thing I just cant remember it. I wanna say is has something to do with the spawn.. Like they are the only cutts to spawn in a lake and not a river? but Like I said I am not sure.

Also I think they pulled some cutts out of yellowstone in the 10+ lb range but its been a long time since I have heard anything about yellowstone cutts.

 

[BuzzH]

Delw,

Here you go:

Yellowstone Cutthroat
The Yellowstone cutthroat trout Salmo clarki bouvieri, is the most abundant and widely dispersed subspecies of inland cutthroat trout. The historic range of the subspecies included the Yellowstone River drainage in Montana and Wyoming and portions of the Snake River drainage in Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada, Utah and perhaps Washington. Yellowstone cutthroat trout became isolated in the headwaters of the Snake River after the creation of Shoshone Falls 30,000-60,000 years ago. Between 8000-12000 years ago Yellowstone cutthroat trout entered the Yellowstone River Drainage from the Snake River Drainage at Two Ocean Pass in what is now Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming.

Yellowstone cutthroat trout subsequently colonized all suitable habitats within the drainage. Since the late 1800s the occupied range of stream dwelling Yellowstone cutthroat trout in the state of Montana has decreased by approximately 90%. Current distribution and abundance of Westslope Cutthroat trout is also severely restricted compared to historical conditions

 

[Delw]

LOL buzz I think I just grabbed teh same article
http://fwp.state.mt.us/fieldguide/detail_AFCHA02087.aspx

Cutthroat Trout

Oncorhynchus clarki bouvieri
(Salmonidae)

Montana Species of Concern
Global Rank: G4T2
State Rank: S2

Agency Status
USFWS: none
USFS: none
BLM: SENSITIVE

General DescriptionThe Yellowstone cutthroat trout is one of two cutthroat trout subspecies in Montana. They have a golden coloration and larger spots more widely distributed on their sides than the westslope cutthroat trout. The Yellowstone cutthroat, as the name implies, is native to the Yellowstone River drainage of southwest and south-central Montana. Originally their range was as far downstream as the Tongue River, but today pure, unhybridized populations are limited to some headwaters streams and Yellowstone National Park. Yellowstone cutthroat are a Montana Fish of Special Concern. Much of their spawning habitat in tributaries of the upper Yellowstone River has been lost to irrigation withdrawals which dewater the streams before spawning and egg-incubation are completed in July and August. The Big Timber hatchery of the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks maintains a pure Yellowstone cutthroat broodstock. Yellowstone cutthroat are used extensively for mountain lake stocking on the east slope of the Rocky Mountains and in the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness where they can grow to sizes up to 15 pounds. In general, Yellowstone cutthroat are larger than westslope cutthroat and more prone to eat fish as part of their diet.
Diagnostic CharacteristicsThe Yellowstone cutthroat trout is visually distinguished from other trout species by its two prominent red slashes on the lower jaw, and from other cutthroat trout subspecies by its medium-large, black spots that tend to be concentrated posteriorly, and its drab brownish, yellowish, or silvery coloration, with brighter colors generally absent even in mature fish (Behnke 1992, Baxter and Stone 1995) (AFS website 2003).

Tiny teeth are usually present on the floor of the mouth behind the tongue. These are embedded in tissue and difficult to see but may be felt if brushed with the side of a needle. Red on the side of the head and gill cover becomes intense in the breeding male.
Economic ValueYellowstone cutthroat trout are a popular game fish. They have been widely stocked in much of the West, but different stocks vary in their productivity when stocked in non-native waters (Behnke 1992).
HabitatYellowstone cutthroat trout inhabit relatively clear, cold streams, rivers, and lakes. Optimal temperatures have been reported to be from 4 to 15 degrees C., with occupied waters ranging from 0 to 27 degrees C. (Gresswell 1995) (AFS website 2003).
EcologyYellowstone cutthroat trout may live as long as 11 years (Gresswell 1995) (AFS website 2003).

There are three primary life history patterns: resident, fluvial, and adfluvial (Gresswell 1995). Resident fish occupy home ranges entirely within relatively short reaches of streams. Fluvial fish migrate as adults from larger streams or rivers to smaller streams to reproduce. Adfluvial fish exhibit a similar pattern, but migrate, sometimes many kilometers, as mature adults from lakes to inlet or outlet streams to spawn (AFS website 2003).

Movement in cutthroat trout may also be associated with temporal habitat changes. At low water temperatures in winter, fry (and probably juvenile) Yellowstone cutthroat trout entered spaces in the stream bottom during the day, and emerged from them at night (Griffith and Smith 1993). Larger cutthroat trout may also shift habitats from fall to winter as water temperature declines and anchor and shelf ice develop (Brown and Mackay 1995, Jakober et al. 1998). Yellowstone cutthroat trout probably undergo localized movements associated with changes in habitat or food availability in other seasons (Young 1996, Young et al. 1997, 1998) (AFS website 2003).
Reproductive CharacteristicsYellowstone cutthroat trout typically spawn in spring and early summer after flows have declined from their seasonal peak and tend to select sites with suitable substrate (gravel less than 85 milimeters in diameter), water depth (9 to 30 centimeters), and water velocity (16 to 60 centimeters per second) (Varley and Gresswell 1988, Byorth 1990, Thurow and King 1994). Water temperature determines the time of hatching and emergence of fry. After emergence, fry immediately begin feeding, typically in nearby stream margin habitats, but they may also undertake migrations to other waters (Gresswell 1995). Juvenile fish require three or more years to mature. Spawning fish tend to be from 200 to over 600 mm long and weigh from 0.1 to 5 kilograms (Thurow et al. 1988) (AFS website 2003).
ManagementTo maintain healthy populations of Yellowstone cutthroat trout and to ensure the wide-ranging persistence of this subspecies in Montana and elsewhere, a number of tactics have been proposed in recent status assessments (Yellowstone Cutthroat Trout Working Group 1994, Gresswell 1995, May 1996, May et al. 1998, Anonymous 1999, Dufek et al. 1999, Wyoming Game and Fish Department 2000). These include field surveys, harvest management, habitat protection and improvement, non-native species control, and broodstock management (AFS website 2003).
Threats or Limiting FactorsGresswell (1995) and Kruse et al. (2000) considered non-native fish species the greatest threat to the persistence of Yellowstone cutthroat trout. Another concern is the widespread stocking of non-indigenous populations of Yellowstone cutthroat trout, such as the distribution of fish from Yellowstone Lake throughout the historical range of the subspecies (Varley and Gresswell 1988). This practice tends to genetically homogenize populations and may be detrimental to their long-term persistence (AFS website 2003).

The influence of other non-native organisms also threatens the persistence of Yellowstone cutthroat trout. Yellowstone cutthroat trout are probably susceptible to infection by Myxobolus cerebralis, a European protozoan and the causative agent of whirling disease (Bergersen and Anderson 1997) (AFS website 2003).

Tributary dewatering for irrigation (Clancy 1988), dams as barriers and reservoirs as poor habitat and sources of non-native fishes (Thurow et al. 1988), river channelization or rip rap (C. Clancy, Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks, personal communication), grazing (Corsi 1988), mining (Nelson et al. 1991), logging (Chamberlin et al. 1991), and road building (Furniss et al. 1991) have been implicated in the loss or reduction of populations of cutthroat trout. Because many populations of Yellowstone cutthroat trout possess complex life histories relying on movement among diverse habitats (Clancy 1988, Thurow et al. 1988, Gresswell et al. 1994), disruptions in habitat quality or availability may reduce this diversity (Rieman and Dunham 2000) or lead to extinction of isolated populations (Dunham et al. 1997). Unfortunately, most remaining populations in Montana are isolated and are at risk of extinction from natural and human-caused events (May et al. 1998) (AFS website 2003).

Delw

 

[BigHornRam]

Thanks guys for all the info, good read.

Hey I was right!---- "Threats or Limiting FactorsGresswell (1995) and Kruse et al. (2000) considered non-native fish species the greatest threat to the persistence of Yellowstone cutthroat trout."

So what's the solution guys? No limits on the non natives?

 

[Bambistew]

One question... Why has the population decreased so much??? Could it have something to do with non-native trout introductions? My guess is that is the biggest factor for the decline. So let get rid of all the bows and browns and bring on the cuts. I like fishing for them better anyway, they seem to be "dumber" and consequently easier for me to catch.

 

[JoseCuervo]

So gunner as usual you blame bush for something that he has no control, and something that you have no idea about. But as you being the whiny ass liberal that you are and looking for a bush bashing at every chance you can get, of course you would say something like this. all the lawsuits in the world wont help these trout if mother nature is in control.

Just because they lost a lawsuit doesnt mean that its going to help the population of these trout. more than likely this lawsuit is and putting them on the endangerd list is just a waste of time and money. Kinda like the crap you post.

Before you start rambling like you usually do when someone questions your lack of skills do some research on on it.

Delw

Hey Del,

Remember your first post in this thread???? Ha ha ha...... Looks like Buzz kinda schooled you. Maybe you were "rambling like you usually do"? Maybe you needed to "do some research on on it".

But glad to know that you now know something about Trout.... Now if you would just learn that the USFWS reports up to Dubya.... |oo

 

[Delw]

Cute.

I was tryiong to remember the stuff, then had some time so decided to look it up.


BTW USFWS are getting major cutbacks all over, we are feeling it here in az as well. some is good and some is bad. problem is when goverment is invloved there is alot of wasted money. you know that and so do I. so due to cuttbacks and some people loosing out on there studys they get mad and sue.

Maybe they should start with there local game and fish offices to make sure they are spending the monies they get from the USFWS is being spent correctly and most efficiently.
There are tons of studies that our local game and fish dept want to do as well but are they really ALL important? I think not, some can be scrapped.

Delw

 

[JoseCuervo]

Del,

There are tons of studies, and many may be important in order to establish baselines on current situations. Our Salmon up here are having "record" runs..... As long as you use the 80's as a baseline.... If you use the 30's, then we have almost lost the populations. If you don't measure stuff, then you end up with CJ's "street biologists"....

The only time I run into USFWS is when I try and do something that I shouldn't be doing over on the Natl Wildlife Refuge.... And in those cases, I think they are doing what they are supposed to be doing....