Dept of Interior handed over to DOGE

[Forkyfinder]

One man’s waste is another’s lifeline. Some people need social security right now. The lack of empathy from some of you is pretty major turnoff but it’s easy to be an internet gangsta so I expect in person you guys are likely much better people

Some people really do need social security. Some dont.Try to get it "means tested" and see what happens .Social security is a regressive tax in many l ways - including with payouts. Its a retirement program and a welfare program - depending on whos defending it and what the issue is.

I dont want the vulnerable elderly to be broke, and soceity should solve those problems with humanity. Social security just happens to also pay a lot of well of millionares a lot per month too.

 

[westbranch]

Some people really do need social security. Some dont.Try to get it "means tested" and see what happens .Social security is a regressive tax in many l ways - including with payouts. Its a retirement program and a welfare program - depending on whos defending it and what the issue is.

I dont want the vulnerable elderly to be broke, and soceity should solve those problems with humanity. Social security just happens to also pay a lot of well of millionares a lot per month too.

One way that social security is "means tested" is by taxing it at up 85%. Lets say a married couple that had above average earnings and retirement income has combined social security benefits of $60k a year and they are in the 22% tax bracket - they would pay about 11k a year in additional tax on SS benefits. Those are just general taxes - possibly could be a way to allocate those to the SS fund? Depending on overall income Medicare is also adjusted by IRMAA and they will pay higher Medicare premiums. So another form of means testing.

 

[Irrelevant]

I can choose to use or ditch MSFT as it suits me.

You completely missed the point. You don't choose to; no one does. The only reason you know that there even is waste in govt is because they're transparent enough to tell you about it. There is more, substantially more, waste in large private businesses, you just don't know about it and therefore don't question it. MSFT is not alone. Google is the same way. UPS is the same way. Boeing is the same. The list just goes on and on. "Waste" as it's being described is a red herring, politically motivated issue.

 

[sclancy27]

As a 15 year federal scientist, I can empathize with your desire for greater efficiency but also I struggle with the implied sentiment that DOGE is doing anything BUT making things efficient and getting rid of waste. Last week the USGS lost 27,000 years of experience and we now spend hours of every day responding to endless DOGE data requests and participating in meetings discussing changes in travel and contracting policy that change again the next day, among many other things that do nothing to benefit sustainable use of natural resources. DOGE is now the source and catalyst of waste and inefficiency. So if you truly don’t care where the waste is, then set your target on DOGE and direct your anger and frustration at them for exacerbating the problem to an order of magnitude never previously imagined.

Preach

 

[TakeABreakAndTouchGrass]

You completely missed the point. You don't choose to; no one does. The only reason you know that there even is waste in govt is because they're transparent enough to tell you about it. There is more, substantially more, waste in large private businesses, you just don't know about it and therefore don't question it. MSFT is not alone. Google is the same way. UPS is the same way. Boeing is the same. The list just goes on and on. "Waste" as it's being described is a red herring, politically motivated issue.

I can choose to disengage with nearly any private entity for which I feel like the money I give it grants me insufficient return via product or services. Pretending that the average citizen should be equally concerned about private (or even publicly traded) companies spending earned money and the government spending tax dollars is ludicrous.

I disagree wholeheartedly about "the only reason" we know about government waste is government transparency. I don't know many federal employees or contractors, but I've heard more than one story about the waste of time and resources they see regularly. To take a clearly non Trump/right wing/conservative example, I don't think I'll ever forget this Jon Stewart interview. This isn't the government being transparent, this is the government trying to sweep good journalism under the rug. Within a reasonable, single digit percentage point margin of error, I believe every government department should be able to account for monies received and monies spent. Any not only that, I think they should be able to demonstrate that they at least attempted to buy things are something approximating a market appropriate cost.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5065582/jon-stewart-questions-defense-deputy-secretary-budget

We don't all have to agree on the approach, but I'd hope that we can all agree that a higher level of accountability for all tax dollars received would be a net positive for the country. Sure, some "waste" will be built in because people are flawed and not every idea pans out as a positive one. But if you or anyone else thinks that is the whole sum of government waste as of today and going back over the last several decades, I'm afraid we're just at an impasse of opinion.

 

[Beignet]

Bring Slick Willie back.

View attachment 369592

 

[Alpine01]

Paid in the most - by what metric? Overall, and not based on per capita?

Dont agree at all that boomers "paid in the most." I was bagging groceries paying higher entitlement taxes than a boomer having peak earnings years in the 70s with 3.6% less and a lot lower cap.

You need to consider the following to get an apples to apples comparison:
1. Bring all $ values to 2024 baseline. You can't compare a 1950 dollar to 1970 dollar or to a 2024 dollar. Inflation matters. Pick and average inflation rate and apply it to each year. I used 3.5%. Over the last 60 yrs, USG data suggests this is closer to 3.8%. In the end, inflation rate differences are in the noise in the final numbers.
2. The total number of any generation needs to be accounted for. As an example using very limited data from my chart and yours to show the extreme, take the max rate any single individual would pay in a given year and multiply that by the total number of people in that age group (I used the 5-yr breakout in the chart above) that paid in starting when that generation first hit 20-yrs old and continue that until the last group hits 65 yrs old; adding the next 5-yr group in at the appropriate time and removing that 5-yr group sequentially as they hit age 65. Do that for each generation. Now add up what they as a group have contributed up to 2024. You will see that the last of the boomers are still paying into SS in 2024 so in total Boomers have been contributing at various levels for the past 59 yrs. Gen-X has been contributing for the past 40 yrs (again at various levels) so while they may be paying at a higher rate, they have contributed for 19 less yrs with fewer numbers in their generation. Millennials have only been adding to the SS pot for 24 years but with slightly higher numbers than Gen-X'rs for each 5-yr age group.
I did this and can show that Boomers account for roughly 47% of contributions, Gen-X at 33%, and Millennials at 20%.
3. Assuming everyone in a given generation contributes at the max rate is not realistic but one can probably assume the bell curve on income levels is roughly the same for each generation so probably washes out in this simple example and thus doesn't change the ratios significantly.

Feel free to poke holes in this example.

 

[SAJ-99]

but I'd hope that we can all agree that a higher level of accountability for all tax dollars received would be a net positive for the country.

Absolutely. I mean, I'm old enough to remember Iran Contra, so Yeah! Accountability. But increasing the level of accountability requires hiring people to make sure money is spent on the right things for the right amount. Those people are called Inspectors General, and they are (or were) scattered through the Government agencies. A large number of them were fired. Hard to reconcile the need for "accountability" while gutting the staff of those in charge of monitoring the process, unless more accountability isn't really the goal. And further irony, doing shady and illegal stuff actually helped Ollie North's career.

Trump uses mass firing to remove independent inspectors general at a series of agencies

The sweeping action removes oversight of his new administration. Some members of Congress are suggesting it violated federal oversight laws.

apnews.com

 

[Forkyfinder]

You need to consider the following to get an apples to apples comparison:
1. Bring all $ values to 2024 baseline. You can't compare a 1950 dollar to 1970 dollar or to a 2024 dollar. Inflation matters. Pick and average inflation rate and apply it to each year. I used 3.5%. Over the last 60 yrs, USG data suggests this is closer to 3.8%. In the end, inflation rate differences are in the noise in the final numbers.
2. The total number of any generation needs to be accounted for. As an example using very limited data from my chart and yours to show the extreme, take the max rate any single individual would pay in a given year and multiply that by the total number of people in that age group (I used the 5-yr breakout in the chart above) that paid in starting when that generation first hit 20-yrs old and continue that until the last group hits 65 yrs old; adding the next 5-yr group in at the appropriate time and removing that 5-yr group sequentially as they hit age 65. Do that for each generation. Now add up what they as a group have contributed up to 2024. You will see that the last of the boomers are still paying into SS in 2024 so in total Boomers have been contributing at various levels for the past 59 yrs. Gen-X has been contributing for the past 40 yrs (again at various levels) so while they may be Feel free to poke holes in this example.

Lots of mental mathematic gymnastics and justifications there. I dont agree with normalizing for inflation or looking at outliers/maxes and defining the benefit for a whole class accoringly.

Compare the rates and the max contributions relative to median household income. Pretty clear every generation of non-boomers is supporting more SS burden than boomers.

1984 : 58,930 median household income (37,800 max taxable oasi/hi wage)....1.56 ratio
2023 : 80,610 median household income (160,200 max taxable oasi/hi wage) 0.50

Or in more words - the median household wage used to be 50% more than max taxable ss wages. Meaning a lot more families capped out at the max and didnt get taxed. Its now double that same "median" family wage.

 

[TakeABreakAndTouchGrass]

Absolutely. I mean, I'm old enough to remember Iran Contra, so Yeah! Accountability. But increasing the level of accountability requires hiring people to make sure money is spent on the right things for the right amount. Those people are called Inspectors General, and they are (or were) scattered through the Government agencies. A large number of them were fired. Hard to reconcile the need for "accountability" while gutting the staff of those in charge of monitoring the process, unless more accountability isn't really the goal. And further irony, doing shady and illegal stuff actually helped Ollie North's career.

Trump uses mass firing to remove independent inspectors general at a series of agencies

The sweeping action removes oversight of his new administration. Some members of Congress are suggesting it violated federal oversight laws.

apnews.com

Which is why I've gone out of my way to avoid stating any support, or lack thereof, for DOGE or any other aspect of the current administration's approach in this thread.

One could argue that the prior Inspector's General were not effective at their position if indeed there was still unreasonable waste going on under their noses, but I have neither the examples nor the desire to try and argue that position. Of course, that would likely justify replacing them rather than just firing outright. Again, a can of worms I'm not interested in pursuing further.

To actually state a portion of my overall position, I believe time will sort many things. I'd prefer to see either hellfire and brimstone rained down or praises lauded up in the 3rd year of any president's term rather than the first 120 days. A lot of people are speaking very speculatively whereas I'd rather wait to see where things flush out.

 

[Irrelevant]

I can choose to disengage with nearly any private entity for which I feel like the money I give it grants me insufficient return via product or services. Pretending that the average citizen should be equally concerned about private (or even publicly traded) companies spending earned money and the government spending tax dollars is ludicrous.

I disagree wholeheartedly about "the only reason" we know about government waste is government transparency. I don't know many federal employees or contractors, but I've heard more than one story about the waste of time and resources they see regularly. To take a clearly non Trump/right wing/conservative example, I don't think I'll ever forget this Jon Stewart interview. This isn't the government being transparent, this is the government trying to sweep good journalism under the rug. Within a reasonable, single digit percentage point margin of error, I believe every government department should be able to account for monies received and monies spent. Any not only that, I think they should be able to demonstrate that they at least attempted to buy things are something approximating a market appropriate cost.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5065582/jon-stewart-questions-defense-deputy-secretary-budget

We don't all have to agree on the approach, but I'd hope that we can all agree that a higher level of accountability for all tax dollars received would be a net positive for the country. Sure, some "waste" will be built in because people are flawed and not every idea pans out as a positive one. But if you or anyone else thinks that is the whole sum of government waste as of today and going back over the last several decades, I'm afraid we're just at an impasse of opinion.

But you don't chose to disengage because you have no idea how incompetent private enterprise is.

Sure, striving for better is always the goal. But when are we being realistic with what that level of efficiency is? We're talking about one of the largest entities on the planet? An entity that has multiple forms of "leadership" that completely changes leadership every 2-4 years (or daily under the current admin). Then we bash public servants so bad publicly that what logically sane and competent human being would ever want to work for an organization that indiscriminately fires you after you were just promoted into a new position with nothing but glowing performance reviews?

Talk about a waste of resources.

For 25% of my income, I get the best military protection on the planet, I get to live in a country where the criminals go to jail, and where my employer has to pay me, I am ensured clean air, clean water, an education, and a vast public land playground. I get life, liberty, and the pursuit and $*)Q!#@$ happiness.

 

[howl]

One man’s waste is another’s lifeline. Some people need social security right now. The lack of empathy from some of you is pretty major turnoff but it’s easy to be an internet gangsta so I expect in person you guys are likely much better people

Nah, I'm like that in person, too.

 

[TakeABreakAndTouchGrass]

But you don't chose to disengage because you have no idea how incompetent private enterprise is.

And my point is that this is entirely irrelevant to the rest of this discussion. There are plenty of individuals that make terrible, terrible money decisions too (many on this forum regarding guns ). It has no bearing on my expectations of government spending.

I largely agree with the rest of your post. My tax burden is not unreasonable and I’m happy to pay it to keep living in my favorite country on earth. That doesn’t mean I don’t want my tax dollars managed wisely.

 

[SAJ-99]

To actually state a portion of my overall position, I believe time will sort many things.

OK. How about you go back to Trump 1 and see he and his staff's relationship with the IGs in that term? Would that meet your "time will sort many things"?

Zinke had to quit after the IG referred an ethics case to the DOJ. And then he got elected to CONGRESS!!!. Sorry, but any "waste and abuse" arguments are disingenuous when they seem to revolve the average employee taking the federal vehicle to go get lunch and overlook the true fraud and corruption from the leaders.

Here is a summary...and probably the reason he fired 17 IGs 3 days into his second term. He doesn't want independence. He wants them to do as he tells them.

"...investigations delved into numerous ethics issues, such as failing to avoid actions that would create the appearance of unethical conduct, violating conflict of interest laws, misusing positions to benefit family members, spending federal funds on private flights, using government employees for personal tasks, and lying to IG investigators."

Trump reported making more than $1.6 billion while president - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington

Donald Trump reported making more than $1.6 billion in outside revenue and income during his four years as President of the United States.

www.citizensforethics.org

 

[sclancy27]

OK. How about you go back to Trump 1 and see he and his staff's relationship with the IGs in that term? Would that meet your "time will sort many things"?

Zinke had to quit after the IG referred an ethics case to the DOJ. And then he got elected SENATOR!!!. Sorry, but any "waste and abuse" arguments are disingenuous when they seem to revolve the average employee taking the federal vehicle to go get lunch and overlook the true fraud and corruption from the leaders.

Here is a summary...and probably the reason he fired 17 IGs 3 days into his second term. He doesn't want independence. He wants them to do as he tells them.

"...investigations delved into numerous ethics issues, such as failing to avoid actions that would create the appearance of unethical conduct, violating conflict of interest laws, misusing positions to benefit family members, spending federal funds on private flights, using government employees for personal tasks, and lying to IG investigators."

Trump reported making more than $1.6 billion while president - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington

Donald Trump reported making more than $1.6 billion in outside revenue and income during his four years as President of the United States.

www.citizensforethics.org

In fairness, he was elected to Congress.

 

[SAJ-99]

In fairness, he was elected to Congress.

Good catch. Edited. House is still junior leagues.

 

[Alpine01]

I dont agree with normalizing for inflation

Sorry, that's just stupid. $3000 in 1950 has the purchasing power of over $38000 in 2024. If you don't understand that basic principle, then further conversation with you is a waste of time.

1984 : 58,930 median household income (37,800 max taxable oasi/hi wage)....1.56 ratio
2023 : 80,610 median household income (160,200 max taxable oasi/hi wage) 0.50

Or in more words - the median household wage used to be 50% more than max taxable ss wages. Meaning a lot more families capped out at the max and didnt get taxed. Its now double that same "median" family wage.

If the median wage in 1984 was $58,930 and the SS tax maxed at $37,500, then the median wage earner paid the maximum SS burden of 11.4% (or $17061 split evenly between the employee and the employer so $8531 each) up to $37,500 of income. Beyond that, they had no additional SS tax. But they did pay the maximum SS amount in 1984.

The 2023 earner in your example paid 12.4% on the entirety of his $80,610 wages which amounts to ~$9996, split evenly with the employer so $4998 each. Had they reached the maximum income threshold, they would have had to pay $20560 in total or $10280 each. So the 2023 earner is paying less than half of what the maximum could be. Thus using your example, the 1984 person (boomer) had a much higher SS contribution than the 2023 earner, not counting inflation. That $8531 in 1984 has the purchasing power of $32,633 in 2023 dollars.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[rjthehunter]

OK. How about you go back to Trump 1 and see he and his staff's relationship with the IGs in that term? Would that meet your "time will sort many things"?

Zinke had to quit after the IG referred an ethics case to the DOJ. And then he got elected to CONGRESS!!!. Sorry, but any "waste and abuse" arguments are disingenuous when they seem to revolve the average employee taking the federal vehicle to go get lunch and overlook the true fraud and corruption from the leaders.

Here is a summary...and probably the reason he fired 17 IGs 3 days into his second term. He doesn't want independence. He wants them to do as he tells them.

"...investigations delved into numerous ethics issues, such as failing to avoid actions that would create the appearance of unethical conduct, violating conflict of interest laws, misusing positions to benefit family members, spending federal funds on private flights, using government employees for personal tasks, and lying to IG investigators."

Trump reported making more than $1.6 billion while president - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington

Donald Trump reported making more than $1.6 billion in outside revenue and income during his four years as President of the United States.

www.citizensforethics.org

You're infatuated with Trump.

 

[TakeABreakAndTouchGrass]

OK. How about you go back to Trump 1 …

No. Like the market, I don’t believe the past is a guarantee of future performance. Time goes beyond the next 4 years BTW.

I’ve not tried to force my opinions on others in this thread intentionally. I’ll leave it at that.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Go DOGE

Tired of useless waste. Don't care where it is.

As opposed to useful waste?