Sako- You might want to research compromising that sagebrush. The amount of sagebrush steppe is a long way from where it used to be and much of it has been abused to the point it's not as productive as it once was or could be. This ecosystem is probably more important to the game animals in WY than any other type due to it's function as winter range. You compromise too much of it and no more big game. If sagegrouse get listed on the ESA you can bet that most any industry in this ecosystem will go pretty dry. I do understand that you have to break some eggs to make an omelete...but when is enough, enough?
Deer avoid drill rigs
- Thread starter Bambistew
- Start date
BuzzH
Well-known member
Good comments by all.
That word "compromise" keeps coming up....
I just wonder why its wildlife and wildlife habitat thats "compromised" down the crapper 99% of the time and not a "compromise" of less wells, cattle, etc. etc. etc.
I'm done compromising...
That word "compromise" keeps coming up....
I just wonder why its wildlife and wildlife habitat thats "compromised" down the crapper 99% of the time and not a "compromise" of less wells, cattle, etc. etc. etc.
I'm done compromising...
Leet
New member
I would have to agree in principal with STW on this one. I am one of those that wound up leaving Wy. to make a living. I love the place with all my soul. I have spent 20 years trying to get home, but until lately it just did not seem likely. There has to be a balance somewhere that keeps the deer herds in mind too. I now live smack in the middle of the drilling country here. It is going to happen in the very near future to some of the best elk and deer country in Co. If the deer avoid drilling rigs they will almost have no place to go around here. There is that much activity going on on the Roan plateau. They say we need the gas but it is all going to Ca. or back east to heat their homes while our prices skyrocket here. I have a friend who leases about 90,000 acres from BLM. this year they will drill 58 holes on this acreage. Where the hell will the critters go to if they avoid drilling?
There has to be comprmise, a happy medium somewhere. At the present rate the Roan plateau will be destroyed as great destination for hunting for who know how long.
Sure the economy is booming around here but at what price? Poaching, drugs, burgs, assaults almost all type of crime is up. There is no housing to be had at all. A way of life is dieing all for the most blatant type of profiteering. It is very sad to see and be unable to do something about it.
STW is right and so is the other side right. It will continue as that is where the $'s are
There has to be comprmise, a happy medium somewhere. At the present rate the Roan plateau will be destroyed as great destination for hunting for who know how long.
Sure the economy is booming around here but at what price? Poaching, drugs, burgs, assaults almost all type of crime is up. There is no housing to be had at all. A way of life is dieing all for the most blatant type of profiteering. It is very sad to see and be unable to do something about it.
STW is right and so is the other side right. It will continue as that is where the $'s are
Ithaca 37
New member
"At the present rate the Roan plateau will be destroyed as great destination for hunting for who know how long."
I can tell you how long. As long as the wells and roads are there.
You've seen it around DeBeque. Is that what you want for WY?
No more compromising for this hunter. We've compromised enough.
I can tell you how long. As long as the wells and roads are there.
You've seen it around DeBeque. Is that what you want for WY?
No more compromising for this hunter. We've compromised enough.
Ten Bears
New member
IT, your fly trap is open again. 
BuzzH
Well-known member
Thanks for the intelligent post Ten Beers, way to add to the discussion.
Ten Bears
New member
Kinda my feelings about ITs post.
And to add to what Leet said:
How LONG will this boom last? I think what 7mm wants is sustained growth, and I don't think he'll get that through energy development. What are you going to do with all that unused infrastructure when the drilling companies move on to the next "near endless" sagebrush flat?
Oak
How LONG will this boom last? I think what 7mm wants is sustained growth, and I don't think he'll get that through energy development. What are you going to do with all that unused infrastructure when the drilling companies move on to the next "near endless" sagebrush flat?
Oak
Ten Bears
New member
Reclamation of habitat needs to be addressed for past sites (& mines in my neck of the woods) before development of new sites should start.
Right now the projections are 15-45 years. There is that much natural gas here. They keep discovering more and more huge pockets as they are doing the exploratory drilling. so it will sustain for a good while. One problem we have had here is lack of population for other industries to move in. Glass MFG's for one have looked heavily into opening here due to the Soda Ash plants being right here. They havent because the other resorces they would need are not here. They will be after this though.
I want to stress a few things since some are taking this to a bit of an extreme. I dont want to go out and see well after well and derick after derick any more than anyone else does. I grew up in these hills and have hunted them my entire life. I live for the outdoors. I am smart enough to know though that if something like this growth didnt happen there would be no work here for me to be able to stay to be able to continue to enjoy it. I know people that literally have watched the obituaries for jobs.
Secondly, dont forget that the state of Wyoming has a population smaller than Salt Lake City. Thats for the whole state! 11th largest state withe the smallest population. Were a long long ways off from having no land for us all to enjoy. I dont want to lose 1 sq ft of it any more than anyone else BUT for the plusses I have seen here, it has been more than worth it.
Dont forget either, the gas industry did compromise, they compromised 90% of the rate they wanted to drill at AND they do have to reclimate all lands.
I want to stress a few things since some are taking this to a bit of an extreme. I dont want to go out and see well after well and derick after derick any more than anyone else does. I grew up in these hills and have hunted them my entire life. I live for the outdoors. I am smart enough to know though that if something like this growth didnt happen there would be no work here for me to be able to stay to be able to continue to enjoy it. I know people that literally have watched the obituaries for jobs.
Secondly, dont forget that the state of Wyoming has a population smaller than Salt Lake City. Thats for the whole state! 11th largest state withe the smallest population. Were a long long ways off from having no land for us all to enjoy. I dont want to lose 1 sq ft of it any more than anyone else BUT for the plusses I have seen here, it has been more than worth it.
Dont forget either, the gas industry did compromise, they compromised 90% of the rate they wanted to drill at AND they do have to reclimate all lands.
I've seen reclamation of lands before with many industries in Montana. We still have a Berkley Pit and asbestos in Libby. Reclamation only happens when a business is still in existance in 45 years, otherwise they call them superfund sites. The tax payer then has to put the money up for all of the "reclamation". Again, I see the need for industry but it has to outweigh the cost. More jobs= more people= more problems. I have yet to see this not be the case. There are cities in Montana that have had great school systems built and a lot of jobs created because of mining, only to turn into a big tax burden once the company leaves. 45 years will only keep 2 generations in jobs. That isn't even to say the people who will work there are from Wyoming. Then when the corporation leaves they may liquidate all assets so the clean up will be left. I don't know if the gas and oil industry do this but I know mining certainly does. I feel a lot of thought has to go into letting a business play around with public lands, habitat, wildlife and the environment.
Ten Bears
New member
MATTK, if you are concerned that the company isn't going to be around after 45 years to perform the cleanup/reclamation, why not make them post a bond for the work? Why not make them post an annual bond with inflation multipiers written into it? I have seen cases where the bond wasn't sufficient tocoverthe costs in the past, but that was because those requiring the bond didn't monitor the job impact, nor know what they were requiring a bond for in the first place. Reclamation bonds need to paid up front, and of suffiecient guantaties to ensure reclamation.
TB- I haven't seen any that posted a bond that was sufficient to ensure a quality clean up after they were gone. You may be able to show some examples. A bond doesn't ensure all of the arsenic leaving the water or the asbestos being taken care of. The companies I have come into contact with have posted bonds but the costs and problems are far more vast than the bond could cover. I'm unsure how the oil and gas does, but most industries that take natural resources do it as quickly and efficiently as possible. They do not take into account (or don't care about) the mess they are leaving. They are more than happy dropping the bond when their earnings triple the bond figure. Then they're out and the town is left with a large infrastructure needing funding and a big environmental mess.
In a perfect world that you speak of, we could recover the cost of the mess. I just don't see it happening. This is the reason people shouldn't look at deer staying away from an oil rig as acceptable risk. Everything should be looked at and taken into account before letting an industry in.
In a perfect world that you speak of, we could recover the cost of the mess. I just don't see it happening. This is the reason people shouldn't look at deer staying away from an oil rig as acceptable risk. Everything should be looked at and taken into account before letting an industry in.
Ten Bears
New member
I'm not going to get into a pissing match about PASSED bonds, NO bonds, corporate bankruptcies, nor perfect worlds. The bond should be assessed as a sufficient amount for remediation. If they can't provide enough forthe remediation, then they can't drill. GET IT. I have been around operations where the bond required was sufficient that the companies were careful enough that they didn't lose their bonds. I believe that the arsenic case you refer to had no bond posted in the first place - I may be thinking of the wrong one though.
TB- I guess I can only go off the PAST history of these industries. It tends to show what WILL happen. If you are part of a good one, GREAT, there shouldn't be a problem, their history will show that.
How do you guess the amount of damage that will occur to create a bond? You must be able to tell the future. You may want to get a better crystal ball, I think the one you are using was cracked during your last ATV ride.
How do you guess the amount of damage that will occur to create a bond? You must be able to tell the future. You may want to get a better crystal ball, I think the one you are using was cracked during your last ATV ride.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
MattK,
How do you heat your home? Buzz heats with natural gas. Ithaca won't say, but I suspect it is heated with his own hot air. Everytime the furnace kicks in, or your water heater starts up, or Buzz drives up from Wyoming to hunt in Montana, you guys are compromising wildlife just like all the rest of us. It doesn't matter whether the drilling is taking place in Canada, or Wyoming, or in Colorado. If it is done wrong the wildlife suffers. If it is done right everyone wins. We all use energy, so lets spend our time doing it right, instead of spending our time whining about what ifs.
How do you heat your home? Buzz heats with natural gas. Ithaca won't say, but I suspect it is heated with his own hot air. Everytime the furnace kicks in, or your water heater starts up, or Buzz drives up from Wyoming to hunt in Montana, you guys are compromising wildlife just like all the rest of us. It doesn't matter whether the drilling is taking place in Canada, or Wyoming, or in Colorado. If it is done wrong the wildlife suffers. If it is done right everyone wins. We all use energy, so lets spend our time doing it right, instead of spending our time whining about what ifs.
Ten Bears
New member
MATTK, I'm not saying that what happened in the past was right, but my point (that you seem to ignore) is that we must learn from the past and adjust the learning tothe future. Have you ever heard the saying "those that fail to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them"? Is the mistake withdrawing the resource, or not requiring a suffiecient bond (if a bond at all) to cover the reclamation?
BuzzH
Well-known member
BHR,
Can you provide some decent evidence and assure us all that the gas development thats happening RIGHT now will be done right and that wildlife habitat won't be degraded?
How about I bet you a stone sheep hunt that the Roan Plateau, Powder River Basin, and the Red Desert take it the shorts on this latest round of "compromising". You wont convince me that the hunting (for antelope, elk, or mule deer) EVER improves with development. Better yet, how about you restrict your hunting to those areas that are developed for gas and oil. Have fun, and good luck, you'll need it...send some pictures of the forkie you kill every 2-3 years.
There isnt enough good mule deer or elk habitat left to compromise anymore...
Ten Beers,
The gas and oil industry, RIGHT NOW, is not using the best available technology they have. As a result wildlife habitat is going down the shitter at an accelerated rate.
Compromising in action...
I wonder how much consideration wildlife was given here? Looks pretty low-impact to me. Oil and gas development "done right"...I bet wildlife really "won" here.
WAKE UP PEOPLE! Hello!
Can you provide some decent evidence and assure us all that the gas development thats happening RIGHT now will be done right and that wildlife habitat won't be degraded?
How about I bet you a stone sheep hunt that the Roan Plateau, Powder River Basin, and the Red Desert take it the shorts on this latest round of "compromising". You wont convince me that the hunting (for antelope, elk, or mule deer) EVER improves with development. Better yet, how about you restrict your hunting to those areas that are developed for gas and oil. Have fun, and good luck, you'll need it...send some pictures of the forkie you kill every 2-3 years.
There isnt enough good mule deer or elk habitat left to compromise anymore...
Ten Beers,
The gas and oil industry, RIGHT NOW, is not using the best available technology they have. As a result wildlife habitat is going down the shitter at an accelerated rate.
Compromising in action...
I wonder how much consideration wildlife was given here? Looks pretty low-impact to me.
Oil and gas development "done right"...I bet wildlife really "won" here. WAKE UP PEOPLE! Hello!
Is that the Joana feild? Looks like it. One of the first major areas of drilling expansion. I know that picture looks terrible but the thing is where thats at isnt in the area the article was talking about. Nor was that area heavily populated by game of any kind, mostly antelope and I will tell you Antelope for one are not as effected by the rigs, as curious of critters as they are, many of the wells now have resident Antelope.
Like I said before they are too reclimate the land. Will it be back to baren sage flats again probably not. Probably a smoothed feild of planted grasses and other desert baring plants. For wildlife, thats actually better than what they have now or I should say had. So is it that a loosing situation then? Not in my eyes.
Is my brother being able to have a good job and supporting his wife and 3 kids because of this oil boom a bad thing? I dare any man on here to say it is! Or the nice home and family life my daughter enjoys because her new step Dad has a good job in the oil patch? Again I dare any man on here to say it is. If ya can say it, then you dont have any compassion for the well ebing of others. Your being as selfish as any anti-hunter, tree hugger, activist can be. Like I said may times, I dont want to see any public land lost to developement and profit than anyone else but i can see the good in it and for this area, like it or not, the goods out weigh the bads.
Like I said before they are too reclimate the land. Will it be back to baren sage flats again probably not. Probably a smoothed feild of planted grasses and other desert baring plants. For wildlife, thats actually better than what they have now or I should say had. So is it that a loosing situation then? Not in my eyes.
Is my brother being able to have a good job and supporting his wife and 3 kids because of this oil boom a bad thing? I dare any man on here to say it is! Or the nice home and family life my daughter enjoys because her new step Dad has a good job in the oil patch? Again I dare any man on here to say it is. If ya can say it, then you dont have any compassion for the well ebing of others. Your being as selfish as any anti-hunter, tree hugger, activist can be. Like I said may times, I dont want to see any public land lost to developement and profit than anyone else but i can see the good in it and for this area, like it or not, the goods out weigh the bads.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
You know what Buzz? Your right. All resource extraction is bad, and it must end today. When you stop posting here I'll know they shut off YOUR power so you can do YOUR part to save the world from ourselves.
Pointer says that tourism is the way to go for Wyoming. Well how do the tourists get to Wyoming? Click their heels and say "take me to Wyoming"? Then once they get there, how do they keep the motels warm for the 9 months of winter there? Tap into the Jellystone Geysers?
The enviros always say tourism is the best economy. That is as long as snowmobiling in jellystone, trail rides with horses, atving, golfing, downhill skiing, hunting, fishing, boating, hiking with size 10 or larger boots, and on and on..... is not considered part of tourism. I guess we can all just get on the computer and have a virtual tour. Good grief!
Pointer says that tourism is the way to go for Wyoming. Well how do the tourists get to Wyoming? Click their heels and say "take me to Wyoming"? Then once they get there, how do they keep the motels warm for the 9 months of winter there? Tap into the Jellystone Geysers?
The enviros always say tourism is the best economy. That is as long as snowmobiling in jellystone, trail rides with horses, atving, golfing, downhill skiing, hunting, fishing, boating, hiking with size 10 or larger boots, and on and on..... is not considered part of tourism. I guess we can all just get on the computer and have a virtual tour. Good grief!
