Decline of Alaska King Salmon Runs and Size Class

[Irrelevant]

Hey @Gatekeeper stop being a dick. You clearly love salmon. I clearly love salmon. I'm sure to some degree we both want what's best for salmon.

Unless you know of better research than I, sockeye from Redfish Lake, ole lonesome larry et al, spend their ocean lives in roughly the same places as Bristol bay's. My point was that salmon in general, not sockeye in specific, are in terrible shape across the vast majority of their range. And if ocean fisheries are unable to effectively sort salmon at sea, between endangered runs, and healthy runs, that something needs to be done differently. I personally said the easiest would be to stop fishing with the hope that given a full cycle or two we can see some considerable upticks in populations. We have some incredibly healthy watersheds that only see a few fish return each year, the those same runs are hammered by harvest their entire lives, AK, CAN, WA/OR, Tribal, and recreationally with the most restrictive being terminal fisheries. But clearly you don't support that. That's fine.

 

[Cheesehead]

Ok just one more thing while you are solving the worlds salmon problems . If old Lonesome Larry of Red Fish lake goes out to sea and spends his time in the same place as all the Bristol Bay salmon . Then 50 million fish return to Bristol Bay and Lonesome Larry comes back alone the problem may not be at sea .

If there’s one thing I’ve learned in this life, it’s that assholes who alienate people who care about the same things as them go really far

 

[Cheesehead]

Just how did I alienate somebody ? neaffa3 says in post #12 he would vote for a minimum 6 year moratorium on all salmon fishing . I was under the impression that Ballot box biology was not a good idea . So we can just drop all fisheries management and just vote on shutting down all salmon fisheries ? You want to roll with that one on hunting also ?

I'm being a dick calling's him out on his whataboutisms ? I have him calling me a dick and you calling me an asshole .

Debate the subject at hand and quit calling me names like children .

I can help! To your question...

Just how did I alienate somebody?
Your suggestion in post #12 about a 6 year moratorium on all salmon fishing is utter stupidity
That...would generally be considered unhelpful behavior

Another pro tip:


Now back to the fish

 

[Cheesehead]

I consider Ballot Box Biology utter stupidity . I think closing down salmon fishing in Bristol Bay because of problems with dammed up rivers in Washington state and on the west coast is absurd . I would say there is little difference in that suggestion than closing Moose season in Maine because there is a problem with coues deer in Arizona . That is an example I am not using it to change the subject .


We do not care about the same things . We are on opposite sides, he wants to close salmon fishing and I think that is not the correct approach .

Good luck, asshole. Blocked

 

[Salmonchaser]

The problem with the state of Alaska is a narrow focus, as long as the reds come back, no body really cares it would seem. Close a river to sport fishing for kings but allow Com fish to nearly close the river with nets. Make a great South Park episode.

 

[MTTW]

450,000 reds went up the Naknek yesterday. 1.4 million plus 800,000 in the river on the Kvichak. About 2 weeks counting on Kvichak.
Those rivers are not quite closed with nets. Actually the Kvichak just got it's first opening of the year. 7 hours.
Closed like vault doors. Not hardly.

 

[Salmonchaser]

The good news is this year the run is so large the guys are filling their nets so fast they can’t keep up. I’ve seen years we’re the entire escapement was only 850000 which is about what has gone up in the last two days. Walked 1/2 mile of beach in Naknek three days ago and found 70 kings dead with net scars. Point being, regardless the number of returning reds, the kings are impacted. Fish 25 or 26 tides straight, at or near the mouth of a 35 mile long river, by-catch is going to have an impact. Again, ADFG has it in writing, the Naknek and several other systems will be managed for Sockeye. Kings, silvers, pinks and chum were not mentioned.

like a barn door, no but three times in the last 20 years the fleet, up to 700 boats, has been pulled into the river to fish, that my friend is a barn door.
I’ve fished the river since 1961, guided in the region for 20 years, I’m pretty good at catching fish, hell I can’t hold a candle to com fish. Those boys know how to catch fish, the processors have increased their ability to can and freeze 10 fold in the last 10 years. That’s a hell of an investment that needs to be fed.
I’m doing my part, no bait single hook kind of thing, not killing hens not killing large bucks and killing every jack that comes to the boat. I just hope others start doing more than wringing their hands.
also very thankful for sockeye. I’ve a group here from Idaho that only keeps double digit class sockeye. Keeps them busy all day releasing and catching fish. Been clients for 15 years They haven’t killed a king in five years.
time to go fishing...

 

[bullbugle307]

I took a skiff through the fleet while they were fishing the Naknek on my way to Levelock on the Kvichak. We were on the verge of a small craft advisory, but we wanted to take advantage of a big tide getting up the Kvichak. Talk about a goat rope trying to pick our way through all those boats and all those nets.

 

[bullbugle307]

Cool photos and history! Thanks for posting!

 

[Salmonchaser]

Cool photos and history! Thanks for posting!

Great photos,

 

[MTTW]

I have been on the north beach at Naknek every day for 2 weeks and several days the 3 weeks before that.
I have seen zero kings bigger than a jack dead on the beach. We had one rotten tail in the net, not sure if it was a drop out or a carcass from subsistence use.
I am not going to deny that there is an impact on kings by the commercial fleet but there are restrictions in place to minimize the impact. Gill net mesh size, net depth, ect.
Some sport fishermen on the other hand target kings, all the while pretending that their catch and release fishing causes no mortality.

 

[Salmonchaser]

Ok the ten fold was something I just repeated without having any idea if it’s valid. My apologies and I am humbled. That capacity has been increased is, in my mind, is a great thing, never said I was against com fish. I’ve been told, and again with out validation that much of the work visible from the highway was to increase capacity so the guys were less often put on limits. I just don’t genuflect at the alter. I just don’t know why we don’t see com fish doing more about kings. You missed the point MTTW did not. Sport fish does have a lot of accountability, 15 guests, 5kings each for the week, 70 fish. Four weeks Good king fishing, 280 fish x 5 or 6 lodges that’s a couple of grand. Mortality rates vary widely but single hooks certainly improve the odds of releasing fish that will survive.
we went to no kill, simply trying to do our part.
the guests we have that participate in com fish tell me they only kill ten or so kings a year on their boats, tell me that’s probably average. Seams remarkable but I have no reason to doubt it. Multiply that by the fleet, I’ll let the data master fill that in, it’s a bunch of kings; I’m simply arguing com fish can’t deny their impact on kings.
I love that there are strong sockeye runs, gives me plenty to do and my guests are filling their ice chests with the plentiful reds, not kings like we used to do.
will I bitch when the river dries up and there are very few fish coming in, due to heavy netting pressure. Yep, I got a mortgage to cover also, happy guests come back and I have as much right to the resource as you do. Ok, that’s an assumption, but there is something in the State Constitution to that effect, all user groups. Do I like the sockeye run seems to be lasting longer then it used to, yep, for the same reasons, I’d rather kill reds then kings.
GK, your data is outstanding, I actually learned a lot and will admit I always figured com fish killed 90% of the return every day, those are the days that obviously attract my attention. I’m humbled.
I really think we are all better served by Travis Ellison (sp) then Slim, I know we are. We always thought 20,000 offered good fishing, we seem to have a lot more days well over that with that now.
yesterday (warning, no longer have the data in front of me) 100,000 reds came up the river, com fish killed 400,000, escaped fish total 1.9 million for the season so far. It’s easy fishing for reds.
Always willing to learn something, would love to learn that com fish does not plan to erect a statue to the fisherman who kills the last king.
I type slow, out of time, educate me some more, you have good stuff.

 

[Salmonchaser]

I guess that the processing capacity really isn't what they processed in 2011 . That is how many fish they caught in 2011 . The processing capacity is the amount of fish they processed in 1995 which is 44 million fish . They successfully processed 44 million fish that is known processing capacity. So they now have the capacity to process 440 million fish . That would roughly be 2 billion 800,000 pounds of sockeye . Why would they need 10 times the processing capacity than they have on the largest year .View attachment 187873

Ok that would be a lot of fish

 

[Goodfish]

Gatekeeper way to hold your ground against the ignorance that what is screwed up in Seattle must be screwed up everywhere. They don’t know one species of salmon from another.

 

[Goodfish]

Fish and Game has an escapement number they use to allow enough fish upriver for future years returns . They count some of the rivers off a tower . They have a white sheet of something on the river bed and when fish swim over it they count them . They count 10 minutes per hour 24 hours a day and get an average number .View attachment 187725

They used to count most every River that way. First they counted the escapement. Then they would open the region to commercial fishing for a while and then shut it back down for the next escapement. It worked for well over 100 seasons for red salmon. No hatcheries.

 

[Goodfish]

They used to count most every River that way. First they counted the escapement. Then they would open the region to commercial fishing for a while and then shut it back down for the next escapement. It worked for well over 100 seasons for red salmon. No hatcheries.

King Salmon are a different and extremely complicated story. They live in different parts of the open ocean and are subject to much different predation and never had the biomass of sockeye to start with. I have personally witnessed the slaughter of tons of kings and halibut being “ justified” as by-catch on factory cod trawlers and tossed back in the ocean dead so we can have cheap filet-o-fish burgers at McD’s. Add that to all the other issues like temperature sensitivity on their food source, spawning ground issues, dams, drought, fishing pressure, and in the lower 48 the political environment of competing for the last fish is proving to be a race to the bottom for the kings. One of the few things we can so is support the Cod pot fishermen and long liners by buying sustainability harvested fish. The factory trawl fisheries won’t regulate themselves and are unfortunately very politically connected.

 

[Salmonchaser]

I’ve never comfished but sport fished here almost every year since 1961. Dad was stationed in Alaska. We hardly ever fished Reds, hell they weren’t even a sport fish designation back then and fish and game at one time had a bounty on rainbows because they eat sockeye smolt.
I probably have a million (overstated) spawning pictures. Absolutely the best part of being a guide is flying to the remote streams where sockeyes spawn, barbless hooks and countless rainbow char and Grayling.
We as a business understand what com fish has done for Bristol Bay. Can’t understand,with all the power they have, the two stores in the area run out of Diet Coke for the entire summer.
I really don’t care if I can’t fish Kings, because we have Sockeyes and have changed our demographic for late July, we mostly fly for bows, staying off kings as much as we can.
What I am hoping for is finding the common ground, if it exists, for com fish and sportsman to save kings. I’ve been looking at the spawning beds for kings on this river for a long time, last summer it was scary how few there were.
Yesterday was 100000 fish day, a couple days ago was a push 400000 up the river 400000 in the nets. Over the years we’ve learned that 20,000 makes for a good day, keeps my clients busy all day, I hope they keep coming but would prefer lower numbers.
Have a good season, get in touch when you’re done, I’ll buy lunch.

 

[Salmonchaser]

King Salmon are a different and extremely complicated story. They live in different parts of the open ocean and are subject to much different predation and never had the biomass of sockeye to start with. I have personally witnessed the slaughter of tons of kings and halibut being “ justified” as by-catch on factory cod trawlers and tossed back in the ocean dead so we can have cheap filet-o-fish burgers at McD’s. Add that to all the other issues like temperature sensitivity on their food source, spawning ground issues, dams, drought, fishing pressure, and in the lower 48 the political environment of competing for the last fish is proving to be a race to the bottom for the kings. One of the few things we can so is support the Cod pot fishermen and long liners by buying sustainability harvested fish. The factory trawl fisheries won’t regulate themselves and are unfortunately very politically connected.

All forms of com fish shouldn’t be lumped into the same basket; I’ve done it, there is a difference.

 

[Salmonchaser]

I’ve never comfished but sport fished here almost every year since 1961. Dad was stationed in Alaska. We hardly ever fished Reds, hell they weren’t even a sport fish designation back then and fish and game at one time had a bounty on rainbows because they eat sockeye smolt.
I probably have a million (overstated) spawning pictures. Absolutely the best part of being a guide is flying to the remote streams where sockeyes spawn, barbless hooks and countless rainbow char and Grayling.
We as a business understand what com fish has done for Bristol Bay. Can’t understand,with all the power they have, the two stores in the area run out of Diet Coke for the entire summer.
I really don’t care if I can’t fish Kings, because we have Sockeyes and have changed our demographic for late July, we mostly fly for bows, staying off kings as much as we can.
What I am hoping for is finding the common ground, if it exists, for com fish and sportsman to save kings. I’ve been looking at the spawning beds for kings on this river for a long time, last summer it was scary how few there were.
Yesterday was 100000 fish day, a couple days ago was a push 400000 up the river 400000 in the nets. Over the years we’ve learned that 20,000 makes for a good day, keeps my clients busy all day, I hope they keep coming but would prefer lower numbers.
Have a good season, get in touch when you’re done, I’ll buy lunch.

Our niece counted on the Naknek for three years. Love that child but can’t believe a billion dollar industry would bet their future on her.

 

[Goodfish]

I worked for a few years in the 80’s on a boat out of Port Moller that contracted to the canneries and ADFG to determine the sockeye run size inbound to Bristol bay. They had a pretty good idea of the total run size before anyone fished in the bay. Then ADFG had counters on each river to ensure they had Escapement before they opened the commercial seasons in each local area. They were short seasons and then they let another escapement happen so they didn’t slaughter entire runs from a river. Not sure if it is still done that way or not but I hope so. When we were checking the sockeye population off shore with a gill net it was extremely rare to catch a king.