Day Trespass fees for turkeys and deer

[Forkyfinder]

Ha, go get em Tiger. That’s sure to swing the doors of access wide open.

I have a feeling that you’re about to find out that some states have a much stronger entitlement mentality than others.

The only "entitlement" here is thinking you deserve a tag more based on how much is in your pocket and not where you live.

 

[SAJ-99]

How are we comparing habitat conservation subsidies to paying cash money to someone to shoot an animal sustaining itself in that habitat and tell others “na this spots already paid for”?

Yea paid for by the tax payers. I hear ain’t much public in OK where I’m moving, nothing like the vast wilderness of MT where I’m at. I hear it’s hard to get on anywhere because you gotta pay for access. Guess who’ll be reminding them that the wildlife are held in the public trust for the residents of that state! Guess where I learned it? Stick around OP. We will learn ya. Treesnake wants to sell off our public and loves paying for access too so take my initial response how you’d like, but round here, we want to keep public lands (and wildlife) PUBLIC

Not comparing, just saying different types of compensation have been around for a long time. This isn’t about public lands, it’s about a payment for private. Enrollment in CRP wasn’t contingent on hunting. The graph is of acreage, but the reason for the decline is payments never kept up because of Congress. So the same guys who complain about not having a place to hunt is also complaining that taxes are too high or wonders why we pay farmers to not plant. Maybe CRP should be changed to a block management system? I don’t have great solutions because these days people are buying farms/ranches for hobbies and not for farming/ranching. This trend has been going on for decades. It isn’t going to stop. Mostly my advice is don’t be poor.

 

[Treeshark]

So the same guys who complain about not having a place to hunt is also complaining that taxes are too high or wonders why we pay farmers to not plant. Maybe CRP should be changed to a block management system?

Block management is dying on the vine as well. Hard to find a solution.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Block management is dying on the vine as well. Hard to find a solution.

Not really. It just expanded in terms of payments and will soon options.

Lots of landowners wont even know about the better program for a few seasons.

 

[Treeshark]

Not really. It just expanded in terms of payments and will soon options.

Lots of landowners wont even know about the better program for a few seasons.

That could certainly help, but my understanding is that it has been on a downward trajectory for a while in terms of acreage.

Intersting to note that two most recent and significant attempts to improve enrollment did not appear to help.

 

[SAJ-99]

That could certainly help, but my understanding is that it has been on a downward trajectory for a while in terms of acreage.

Intersting to note that two most recent and significant attempts to improve enrollment did not appear to help.
View attachment 365347

It's a good chart. I think the increase in payments helps slow the descent, but it certainly isn't a magical solution. I have a couple of theories that add to things already discussed - 1) people generally suck. More people = more suck-age. In that case the landowner would rather lease to a few hunters at a lower rate than open it up in BM to someone/everyone they don't know. More money helps, but isn't the only variable considered, and 2) the internet sort of made the world a smaller place. Whereas previously the person that was asking to hunt was typically a friend, relative, or at least a friend of a friend. Today, it could be any random person who found the landowner's address on the internet. Maybe in 1985 they had 3 people per year ask to hunt, now they have 30 asking before the season even opens and some may offer to pay for exclusive rights.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

It's a good chart. I think the increase in payments helps slow the descent, but it certainly isn't a magical solution. I have a couple of theories that add to things already discussed - 1) people generally suck. More people = more suck-age. In that case the landowner would rather lease to a few hunters at a lower rate than open it up in BM to someone/everyone they don't know. More money helps, but isn't the only variable considered, and 2) the internet sort of made the world a smaller place. Whereas previously the person that was asking to hunt was typically a friend, relative, or at least a friend of a friend. Today, it could be any random person who found the landowner's address on the internet. Maybe in 1985 they had 3 people per year ask to hunt, now they have 30 asking before the season even opens and some may offer to pay for exclusive rights.

Looking specifically at the Dakotas and crp/crep the issue isn't price, it's that the feds don't allocate enough dollars for how many acres want to be enrolled in the programs. More farmers want to enroll more acres than there are funds available.

Side note, comparing Montana programs to programs in the Dakotas isn't very viable. The Dakotas are primarily row crop whereas much of Montana is pasture land

 

[Forkyfinder]

That could certainly help, but my understanding is that it has been on a downward trajectory for a while in terms of acreage.

Intersting to note that two most recent and significant attempts to improve enrollment did not appear to help.
View attachment 365347

Not enough time has passed to know.

Externalities like people no longer having means to pay outfitters to shoot 2.5 year old muley dinks (i.e. a recession) play a bigger role imho.

 

[SAJ-99]

it's that the feds don't allocate enough dollars for how many acres want to be enrolled in the programs.

Sorry, my bad. That was kind of what I meant by price. I lumped a lot of stuff in that word. The internet is where you get grief for both oversimplification and getting too much in the weeds.

 

[Treeshark]

Externalities like people no longer having means to pay outfitters to shoot 2.5 year old muley dinks (i.e. a recession) play a bigger role imho.

Perhaps. Could also be that same externality leads to NRs no longer having the means or desire to pay high NR fees (which fund BMA) to shoot said 2.5 forky.

My bet is neither of those things turn out to be true anytime soon. People probably have a better chance to shoot something better going the private/outfitter route, which is why it continues to gain popularity.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Perhaps. Could also be that same externality leads to NRs no longer having the means or desire to pay high NR fees (which fund BMA) to shoot said 2.5 forky.

My bet is neither of those things turn out to be true anytime soon. People probably have a better chance to shoot something better going the private/outfitter route, which is why it continues to gain popularity.

If the money doesnt keep landowners in bma - wouldnt some of them still be enrolled if they werent over run with hunter days? Whats the source of at least half the days in r6 and r7? I imagine this is also true in other states. How can you argue that the funding matters when an increase in funding didnt lead to more enrolled?

 

[Treeshark]

I don’t care to write out more of an opinion than I have already shared. Seems fairly intuitive to me, but all good if you see it differently.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

Sorry, my bad. That was kind of what I meant by price. I lumped a lot of stuff in that word. The internet is where you get grief for both oversimplification and getting too much in the weeds.

Very fair all around!

I wish we allocated more dollars as it would improve so many things. Not sure if you guys saw it but a couple years ago we had a nasty wind storm reminiscent of the dust bowl around here. They figured it took 3mm of top soil from the entire eastern part of SD. Not saying crp would have stopped that completely but it does greatly help with soil erosion....

 

[Rack Daniels]

Well, I have figured out who @Rack Daniels is.
Still wondering if @SAJ-99 truly hunts.

Never knew anyone needed a hint?
I thought I had the proverbial “kick me” sticker on my back already!?

Big Rack Daniels
Flatbrimmer
FoodIsMemories

 

[Forkyfinder]

I don’t care to write out more of an opinion than I have already shared. Seems fairly intuitive to me, but all good if you see it differently.

Ah yes. Where this always goes. Disappointed you dont see how being paid 5k, 25k, or 50k really matters to some of the landowners when it means being over run with people far away from your community.

The landowners that i know - who would sign up but instead dont - have cited that as the barrier. And i completely get why.

 

[Treeshark]

I am struggling to identify your point- I’m not sure whether we agree or disagree on this.

 

[3855WIN]

You can draw something up or carry your own insurance, can you not?

Sure you can. But it doesn’t change the fact that a stranger is asking to use a firearm on one’s property. That’s a big ask, if you think about it.

 

[Pucky Freak]

I’ve had luck asking for permission to hunt in IA, MN, WY, CO, & MT. In the 3 western states, the properties were thousands of acres. More often than not the properties were adjacent to leased ground of similar quality.

There are a ton of landowners in remote areas who like hunters visiting and talking with them. Some of them live alone, or are lonely. If I ask permission I usually get told no, but occasionally I get a yes. My typical interaction with a landowner is a 30-60 minute conversation at first contact. I am not a skilled conversationalist. I am respectful, show interest in their business/livelihood, I listen, and I share about my hunting. I’ve had plenty of long conversations with folks after I am denied permission to hunt. The land, the habitat, the animals, and the human stewards of those 3 all matter, so I treat them like they all matter. Occasionally after a long discussion the LO will say now that they got to know me, I am welcome to hunt their property. Sure, plenty of in-person cold calls the person says “no” and they do not want to talk. But for every one of those I get another one who welcomes the interaction. The last 2 times I asked for permission the answer was yes. One was a 8k acre ranch, and the other a 1k Iowa farm. The cold call conversations were 30 mins and 60 mins respectively. Anytime I get a hint that I can volunteer to help the LO I offer it. I have felled and removed dead trees, offered to teach their kid to hunt, and delivered processed meat, among other things.

For me, interacting with the landowners is part of the experience for me. Whether it is next door or across the country when I am only there for a week. Many times when I come in chance contact with a LO in town or afield or whatever, I like to talk w/ them about their work and land. I don’t ask to hint. I aim to end the conversation w/ something along the lines of “Thanks for taking good care of your land and keeping a place for wildlife to live.” I bring my kids along for conversations w/ LO’s to teach my kids about being a good neighbor.

I could go on and on, but I will leave it with I am reluctant to pay to play because I miss out on what I enjoy about the experience, which is the human interaction (2nd to not paying for something I can easily get for free).