Yes, butterfly flapping it's wings and all that.
Seriously though, the crash in cutthroat sets a string of events in motion.
Cutthroat trout and elk calves
- Thread starter jryoung
- Start date
Yes, butterfly flapping it's wings and all that.
Seriously though, the crash in cutthroat sets a string of events in motion.
I'm still waiting for my free tv!
Gerald Martin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Messages
- 8,623
Interesting article. I can buy the hypothesis. Protein is protein and larger predators have to eat. I'm not a bit surprised at the rates of predation on elk calves by either black or grizzly bears.
I will admit, this last part really peaked my interest. This really feels like a slight of hand trick. Of course, this is just a gut feeling, so I ask for further understanding and since wolves were brought up already I don't mind asking.
The article/study indicates that maintaining cutthroat will have a larger impact on elk, than maintaining wolves. So, the additional 300+ calves killed due to the lack of cutthroat has a greater impact than the 1000+ (my guess, couldn't substantiate) elk killed by wolves in the park? I'm sincerely asking this question. If someone could provide some constructive feedback I would appreciate it.
I of course understand that it's important to maintain the cutthroat to piece together the giant jigsaw puzzle of nature, but I'm having a hard time understanding how this would be a larger piece than the wolves in regards to growing our elk populations. Am I just reading that wrong?
Shannon, slay those lakers. When you get your fill, puncture the swim bladder and send more to the bottom.
Di and I mostly catch cuts, but we pick up some Lakers. I've had very good luck smoking them with medium hot smoke for a few hours. Peal all the meat off the bones and serving with a butter or mayo sauce followed by a swallow of Laphroaig.
mdunc8
Well-known member
Might see you up there. I'll try and save a few for ya
jryoung
Well-known member
Remember you are reading the "article" and not the "study". But, I think people are tying to link this to wolves too closely, when they should be looking at it as another factor hindering elk populations specifically calf recruitment., and as Ben pointed out the most important factor is how they species are connected.
It would be interesting to see a "Bitterroot Elk Study" conducted in Yellowstone to determine which predators have the greatest impact on elk calves...then layer on the components of these studies.
Yep, i think a lot of that data exists. WGFD & Wildlife Conservation Society have been working in GTNP for over a decade looking at predator/prey issues with elk, moose, wolves & bears. Add on top of that the absoroka elk ecology projectvon the east side of the park and you start to get a more complete picture of how it all works together.
I'd love to see someone like RMEF put some serious resourcescinto a habitat quality project surrounding the park to help supplement all of these studies.
But that would mean getting off the "all wolves are bad" bandwagon.
jryoung
Well-known member
There is a lot of opportunity for the RMEF to lead in this regard. They are doing it with the Bitterroot Study, I believe they are assisting on a forage study as well. To step up and try and tie this all together with the changes in habitat would be huge. I can't imagine there aren't already institutions looking into this or ready to do so.
Someone just needs to convince the RMEF Board that this would be a good idea.....
katqanna
Well-known member
In addition to the possible interconnectedness of trout and grizzlies (reminds me of the MWF presentation on Grizzlies in March, a north central Montana group of bears are maturing faster due to nearby ranchers dropping dead livestock on the edge of the range, the consumption of this high livestock diet [makes me wonder about growth hormones and such] is causing an earlier maturation in the bears, which will increase their numbers quicker. ) increasing grizzly predation of elk, there are major climate factors that are coming into play with the drought season.
I attended an elk working group meeting in the Madison yesterday, and while the public land ranchers were bitching about the elk numbers (wanting to kill them all would have made them very happy) and the lack of grass, following a previous drought year, FWP's agent stated that while some elk might die from this drought, it will more severely affect their reproductive numbers and we wont see the decline until later.
This reminded me of the paper, Issues of Elk Productivity For Research and Management, which states the connection between forage and birth rates. An article came out last year, in one of the western Montana papers citing another study on the forage and birth numbers. Not to sound like a messenger of woe, but when you look at the larger picture and the number of factors involved, such as disturbance from recreational vehicles, increased predation, drought affecting migration pattern and herd density and drought affecting forage for fertility/pregnancy needs, I am afraid that we are on the edge of major declines in elk numbers.
Ethical public hunters should be keeping abreast of these issues and becoming more proactive in conservation efforts, based on science, rather than apathetically sitting around, blaming the wolves, with a "breed them so we can shoot them" mentality or before you know it, there wont be much to shoot.
I attended an elk working group meeting in the Madison yesterday, and while the public land ranchers were bitching about the elk numbers (wanting to kill them all would have made them very happy) and the lack of grass, following a previous drought year, FWP's agent stated that while some elk might die from this drought, it will more severely affect their reproductive numbers and we wont see the decline until later.
This reminded me of the paper, Issues of Elk Productivity For Research and Management, which states the connection between forage and birth rates. An article came out last year, in one of the western Montana papers citing another study on the forage and birth numbers. Not to sound like a messenger of woe, but when you look at the larger picture and the number of factors involved, such as disturbance from recreational vehicles, increased predation, drought affecting migration pattern and herd density and drought affecting forage for fertility/pregnancy needs, I am afraid that we are on the edge of major declines in elk numbers.
Ethical public hunters should be keeping abreast of these issues and becoming more proactive in conservation efforts, based on science, rather than apathetically sitting around, blaming the wolves, with a "breed them so we can shoot them" mentality or before you know it, there wont be much to shoot.
RMEF gets a ton of requests for what seems like a million different projects in all areas of the country. All get ranked and prioritized by a board committee, staff, and volunteers serving on advisory boards.
Jabs like that will surely help convince RMEF committees and advisory boards to move this issue to the top of their priority list, immediately.
That is what I was gleaning from the article, until I read “elk calf recruitment may not be as sensitive to wolf removal on some outlying winter ranges as to the number of grizzly bears and the availability of alternative grizzly bear foods on elk summer ranges in and around YNP.”
This appears to be a direct quote from the study and not from the interview. I just don't understand how they came to that conclusion (or why it was included in the study). I was hoping someone would help me understand the statement more clearly.
I think it is very important to recognize all the environmental impacts, but I also think its extremely important to prioritize them because there is just not enough public interest or money to fix/save them all at once.
jryoung
Well-known member
I think you may need to look at the specific language "elk calf recruitment". The Bitterroot Study shows wolves lag behind cats and bears when it comes to calf survival. Further, other studies have shown that wolf predation increases significantly in the winter when they gain a terrain/range advantage. Additionally, when elk are calving, wolves are having pups and their range decreases IIRC.
The stress of wolves in the winter most definitely plays a role on pregnancy, but it sounds like the focus of comment was more towards when calves are on the ground and getting them to survive the late spring and summer.
And of course then layer on declining nutrition in browse and you have a mess on your hands. It would be interesting if it could be quantified how the drought has exacerbated the increased pressure and stress from wolves and bears.
The stress of wolves in the winter most definitely plays a role on pregnancy, but it sounds like the focus of comment was more towards when calves are on the ground and getting them to survive the late spring and summer.
And of course then layer on declining nutrition in browse and you have a mess on your hands. It would be interesting if it could be quantified how the drought has exacerbated the increased pressure and stress from wolves and bears.
Ungulates can withstand rather poor grazing conditions during the second trimester of their pregnancy (i.e. winter), but it becomes increasinly important as they near their calving periods. The better their nutritional state when they calve, the sooner they will ovulate in the fall. Also, they have increased nutritional demands while lactating, so poor grazing conditions in the summer is really a double whammy. Lighter weight calves, and lower likelihood of ovulation earlier in the rut.
I'd have to go back and look, but I think the Absaroka Ecology project really debunked the thought that stress from wolves led to lower pregnancy rates in elk.
I'd have to go back and look, but I think the Absaroka Ecology project really debunked the thought that stress from wolves led to lower pregnancy rates in elk.
Rimrock
New member
Years ago at a Madison Elk Working Group meeting, it was brought up that bear predation, particularly griz, have more of an effect on elk calves than wolves. Apparently the wolves prefer to let 'em get a little bigger first. Could be true...
At least yesterday we learned the numbers are holding up kinda OK, and unlike some I think that meeting didn't go too badly. Particularly since it took place at a bar, and only water was served!!
At least yesterday we learned the numbers are holding up kinda OK, and unlike some I think that meeting didn't go too badly. Particularly since it took place at a bar, and only water was served!!
I won't be there for the opener; I'm in charge of a pointing dog fun evaluation all day Saturday. But we'll be on the Lake on Sunday. Hopefully, you will have left a few!
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