Cue the Bambification of CO's wolves...

So all of the credible research studies on the coyote/lynx-hare relationship is hogwash?

i dunno, probably not.

but that doesn't mean the concept of "the balance of nature" isn't an overly simplistic take on biology and ecosystem science, that is, in fact, a discredited theory.

it's more nuanced than people realize, and especially more nuanced the the center for biological diversity would like people to believe.



For academic ecologists, the notion of a balance of nature has become passé, and the term is widely recognized as a panchreston [30]—a term that means so many different things to different people that it is useless as a theoretical framework or explanatory device. Much recent research has been devoted to emphasizing the dynamic aspects of nature and prominence of natural or anthropogenic disturbances, particularly as evidenced by vicissitudes of population sizes, and advances the idea that there is no such thing as a long-term equilibrium (e.g., [31],[32]). Some authors explicitly relate this research to a rejection of the concept of a balance of nature (e.g., [33][35]), Pickett et al. [33] going so far as to say it must be replaced by a different metaphor, the “flux of nature.”


the point here is that the world is very chaotic and complex and the notion that disturbances to a system will be counteracted in the long run is not always true.

and it's ESPECIALLY not true when all the other factors are taken into account that result in mortality of a population - the key point being here, the impacts of human presence. a predator prey model may work real well in some places and really poorly in others is one way i interpret the concepts here.

back to your other point, in a hypothetical (that i don't necessarily believe will even be true someday) - once all the deer are gone and the wolves move on, the deer may not come back, because we've simply disturbed the landscape too much, and you suppose i really have the ability to pull the levers that would make them be able to come back? i can fight for it, but i can't make it happen.
 
Depends on where you are. In some areas, the introduction and proliferation, plus (intentional?) lack of adequate management, of large predators including but not limited to wolves, has a substantially detrimental effect on hunting.
WA hunters face problems mostly in arguments that hunting isn't necessary, or can be reduced, for management of cervids because of predators. Your comment basically supports this. It sounds like "wolves are killing MY elk". Most of the US population doesn't care for that argument and we struggle to make a counter argument that can sway overall opinion.
 
i want to make clear to you two that i don't peddle or share the anti wolf sentiment. but i have grave concerns about the future of our wildlife commission and wildlife management. i have concerns about the future of our wolf population that in all likelihood, may never be allowed to be managed. to that end, i see a state that starts to look more like washington and california, where ungulate populations continue to plummet due to development, disease, and unmanaged predators.

do i blame the wolf for my concerns? not at all. but it concerns me as another factor coming down the the pike (one that brings much contention and decades of legal tussles) in this state that headed in a direction that is very concerning for hunters.
 
i want to make clear to you two that i don't peddle in the anti wolf sentiment. but i have grave concerns about the future of our wildlife commission and wildlife management. i have concerns about the future of our wolf population that in all likelihood, may never be allowed to be managed. to that end, i see a state that starts to look more like washington and california, where ungulate populations continue to plummet due to development, disease, and unmanaged predators.

do i blame the wolf for my concerns? not at all. but it concerns me as another factor coming down the the pike (one that brings much contention and decades of legal tussles) in this state that headed in a direction that is very concerning for hunters.
I get the argument that it doesn't help and adds to your concerns. Fair enough. Exactly why I'm with all you Coloradians that this was totally approached rhe wrong way
 
Don't Godfather 3 me on this thread.
How is this different than a 40 page thread that devolved into an argument about the lingering impact of the Napoleonic code in the territories from the Louisiana Purchase with a cryptic, “maybe @VikingsGuy has a take on this legal issue”. Welcome to my world. ;)
 
So don't you think that is more of the problem with why the mule deer are struggling than 5 wolves being put on the landscape?
Seeth it’s not the 5 they put there is the 5-8 pups each female has plus the fact they will never ever be managed, plus the fact this state is growing at an even faster rate than I could have imagined, listening to the co state of the union it’s only a matter of time before someone goes, hey why don’t we build on all that unused land in the foothills? Then it compounds even more…
 
MN has about 2,700 wolves, whereas ID, MT, and WY combined have about 2,700 wolves.

Minnesota definitely has a wolf problem in the northern half of the state. But they also only reside in the northern half of the state.
 
plus the fact they will never ever be managed, plus the fact this state is growing at an even faster rate than I could have imagined, listening to the co state of the union it’s only a matter of time before someone goes, hey why don’t we build on all that unused land in the foothills? Then it compounds even more…
Ok so fight those two things. Bringing wolves back has zero impact on those two things continuing to be an issue moving forward. You are just looking to now use wolves as your excuse
 
Ok so fight those two things. Bringing wolves back has zero impact on those two things continuing to be an issue moving forward. You are just looking to now use wolves as your excuse
Ummm no. They will have a devastating impact on our ungulates just like any unchecked apex predator…
 
How is this different than a 40 page thread that devolved into an argument about the lingering impact of the Napoleonic code in the territories from the Louisiana Purchase with a cryptic, “maybe @VikingsGuy has a take on this legal issue”. Welcome to my world. ;)

I was never stupid enough to get the JD behind my name.
 
I'll answer my own question.
Answer: politics
I think more than that
Legalese is involved. An introduced population, at least in Wyoming was deemed more desirable because the inevitable wild population would have greater protection under ESA than an introduced population.

I don't recall all or any of the details, but that's how it was explained to me.

I haven't been following this thread, but I do love every thing I glanced at. Predator prey models, population regulation, cycles, it's the stuff my dreams are made of.
 
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