creedmore vs 308 article and cyber monday deal on creedmore

Isnt there some formulas out there that take into consideration diameter, sectional density and kinetic energy and come up with some sort of figure that better compares "killing abilty" for lack of a better term. I read about it years ago and never wrote it down. If you base knock down off of kinetic energy I think a .243 shines over a 45-70 at traditional pressures. But I think I'll take my chances with fat and slow on a griz. Does anyone have any insight on that?
 
VAspeedgoat said:
Isnt there some formulas out there that take into consideration diameter, sectional density and kinetic energy and come up with some sort of figure that better compares "killing abilty" for lack of a better term. I read about it years ago and never wrote it down. If you base knock down off of kinetic energy I think a .243 shines over a 45-70 at traditional pressures. But I think I'll take my chances with fat and slow on a griz. Does anyone have any insight on that?
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I have seen several over the years - here is a link to one: https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power_list.htm
 
ImBillT said:
Call me a moron all you want. I went home with an elk instead of a tag. I could have put all sorts of imaginary limitations on myself, or I could have given it a go. I gave it a go. Maybe that makes me a moron. I’m going to enjoy my elk meat.
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I wouldn't call physics imaginary but to each their own.
 
ImBillT said:
Call me a moron all you want. I went home with an elk instead of a tag. I could have put all sorts of imaginary limitations on myself, or I could have given it a go. I gave it a go. Maybe that makes me a moron. I’m going to enjoy my elk meat.
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The tough thing about this is that you basically got lucky. You changed your point of aim by about 2 feet several times. You could just have easily wounded the elk in a non-fatal way and lost the animal, or gut shot it and tracked it forever and lost it, etc. Without knowing the distance you were guessing at wind drift as well along with other factors.

In short, there are lot of variables and your were lucky enough to harvest an elk instead of terrible wounding one that you'll regret for a long time. I've heard my dad talk about guys just "flinging lead" at an animal hoping for the best and basically you did the same thing. I've never killed an elk myself, but I certainly hope to one day. I won't go so far as to call you a moron because that's not my place, but I hope that you're never in the same position in the future.
 
SnowyMountaineer said:
I wouldn't call physics imaginary but to each their own.
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What physics are you referring to? The bullet was perfectly suited to the range. I just didn’t know the range, and it took a few shots to get on. The imaginary limitations I was referring to are the ones people place on themselves when they say “I don’t know if I can do that, so I better not try” I opted for “I don’t know if I can do that, I guess I better try”.
 
The whole concept around comparing cartridges is interesting (and entertaining if you keep it all in perspective). You basically have one case shooting three different caliber bullets; 308win, 7mm08 & 260rem (practically the same as 6.5cm). Since you have the same powder stack and configuration for all of them it stands to reason that ballistically they would be very similar, really only the size of the projectile is changing.

The bullet diameter influences a few factors.
1. Bullet weight influences energy downrange
2. Sectional density (diameter & weight) influences potential penetration (depends greatly on bullet construction)
3. Ballistic coefficient influences wind drift at all ranges and energy downrange at longer distances

When I look at the charts of a 308 vs a 7mm08 vs a 260rem (or 6.5cm) there is really a small difference in the 0-500yd range. The 308 starts with a little more energy and the 6.5 has a little less wind drift.

For me it boils down to this assuming equal rifles with equal accuracy.

If I'm sitting on a bull elk in the 0-600yd range (600yds is my self imposed limit for any game) which cartridge would I rather have all other things being equal? I'll take the 308 because "it's bigger" and I have more confidence that the bigger 308 projectile is going to anchor that big guy. I think this hearkens to the Killing Power List that was posted earlier, but it's as much a confidence "feel thing" as anything.

If I'm sitting on a deer or antelope in the 0-600yd range and there's any wind (there always is) I'd take the 6.5 because I'm more confident I could place it where I want.


Anyway fun discussion and here's the perspective part....how cool is it that we have all these great cartridges to choose from and play with!?
 
ajricketts said:
The tough thing about this is that you basically got lucky. You changed your point of aim by about 2 feet several times. You could just have easily wounded the elk in a non-fatal way and lost the animal, or gut shot it and tracked it forever and lost it, etc. Without knowing the distance you were guessing at wind drift as well along with other factors.

In short, there are lot of variables and your were lucky enough to harvest an elk instead of terrible wounding one that you'll regret for a long time. I've heard my dad talk about guys just "flinging lead" at an animal hoping for the best and basically you did the same thing. I've never killed an elk myself, but I certainly hope to one day. I won't go so far as to call you a moron because that's not my place, but I hope that you're never in the same position in the future.
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Yep. I adjusted by less than an elk chest. About 24” on an animal that’s 28-30” from back to brisket. That’s not luck, that’s logic. I new I hadn’t shot over him. There’s a difference between haphazardly shooting and taking a shot then adjusting. I adjust twice. Is two times several? I would certainly feel pretty badly about loosing an animal, but so far through fifteen deer and an elk I haven’t done that, and really don’t want to. Since switching to Bergers, I haven’t even had to track an animal. The only thing I would change about the experience on that elk hunt would be to have a range finder and start at the correct elevation.

How do you feel about bow hunting? Ever heard of any bow hunters who lost an animal? Do you ever tell them to give up bow hunting because they know they are using a weapon that greatly increases the risk of loosing an animal?

Have you ever missed? If not, have you ever hit one imperfectly?
 
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ImBillT said:
What physics are you referring to? The bullet was perfectly suited to the range. I just didn’t know the range, and it took a few shots to get on. The imaginary limitations I was referring to are the ones people place on themselves when they say “I don’t know if I can do that, so I better not try” I opted for “I don’t know if I can do that, I guess I better try”.
Click to expand...
Nevermind, may the winds of luck continue to favor your strategy.
 
ImBillT said:
The imaginary limitations I was referring to are the ones people place on themselves when they say “I don’t know if I can do that, so I better not try” I opted for “I don’t know if I can do that, I guess I better try”.
Click to expand...

When a shot becomes a WAG, you should let the animal walk away. You owe them at least that respect.
 
ImBillT said:
Yep. I adjusted by less than an elk chest. About 24” on an animal that’s 28-30” from back to brisket. That’s not luck, that’s logic. I new I hadn’t shot over him. There’s a difference between haphazardly shooting and taking a shot then adjusting. I adjust twice. Is two times several? I would certainly feel pretty badly about loosing an animal, but so far through fifteen deer and an elk I haven’t done that, and really don’t want to. Since switching to Bergers, I haven’t even had to track an animal. The only thing I would change about the experience on that elk hunt would be to have a range finder and start at the correct elevation.

How do you feel about bow hunting? Ever heard of any bow hunters who lost an animal? Do you ever tell them to give up bow hunting because they know they are using a weapon that greatly increases the risk of loosing an animal?

Have you ever missed? If not, have you ever hit one imperfectly?
Click to expand...

Definitely missed, also hit one imperfectly, had bullets not perform properly (well within ranges that they should have), etc. Thankfully I've never lost a wounded animal, but I've been sick until I found one a time or two.

Moving your aiming point by 2 feet is logic, hitting the animal in a vital zone was lucky. You obviously weren't seeing your bullet impact otherwise you would have adjusted more the first time. You could have been just barely low and forward and instead wounded the bull in the neck when you adjusted. You have been 12 inches low and back and instead shot him through the guts when you adjusted. That's my whole point; too many variables. A small flinch on your part makes a much less significant difference at 250 yards than it does at 600+ yards.

I would feel the same way about a bow hunter taking a shot at 75 yards without a range finder and no appropriate pin for that yardage. In my personal opinion it's haphazard and there are too many variables to consider. I wouldn't tell that guy to give up just as I didn't tell you to give up. I just hope that you're not in the same position in the future; whether that means a closer shot, known yardage, whatever.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think stories like ImBillT used to be a lot more accepted back in the day. Heck, any story you hear of someone shooting beyond 250 yards before rangefinders is basically the same story for better or worse.

I even remember a story of Elmer Keith shooting a mule deer with a 44 revolver from 600 yards. These sort of stories used to be glorified were they not?
 
Yeah Fred Bear shooting at a sheep over a hill that he couldn't even see...
 
I was brought up to think stunts like that were stupid, irresponsible, and disrespectful to the animal.
 
i make fun of the 6.5 creed, but lets face it I'm going to end up with one ... ImBillT i think your on the right path admitting you need a rangefinder
 
ajricketts said:
Definitely missed, also hit one imperfectly, had bullets not perform properly (well within ranges that they should have), etc. Thankfully I've never lost a wounded animal, but I've been sick until I found one a time or two.

Moving your aiming point by 2 feet is logic, hitting the animal in a vital zone was lucky. You obviously weren't seeing your bullet impact otherwise you would have adjusted more the first time. You could have been just barely low and forward and instead wounded the bull in the neck when you adjusted. You have been 12 inches low and back and instead shot him through the guts when you adjusted. That's my whole point; too many variables. A small flinch on your part makes a much less significant difference at 250 yards than it does at 600+ yards.

I would feel the same way about a bow hunter taking a shot at 75 yards without a range finder and no appropriate pin for that yardage. In my personal opinion it's haphazard and there are too many variables to consider. I wouldn't tell that guy to give up just as I didn't tell you to give up. I just hope that you're not in the same position in the future; whether that means a closer shot, known yardage, whatever.
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On 17 deer that I’ve shot at, I’ve missed two cleanly and didn’t get a follow up shot. Both at under 200yds. Both early in my hunting career. Of the 15 that I’ve killed, I’ve missed two that were then killed cleanly. One at 470yds and one at 380yds. Before switching to Bergers I used Balistic Tip Hunting bullets of various weights in various calibers and the original, pre Balistic Tip, Nosler Solid Base in a .243. Most were hit through the lungs, and only one of those didn’t run at least a few yards, some over 150yds. The first two animals I shot with Bergers were bullet failures, but both were collected. After talking with Berger, being informed that they thought they had a handle on the problem and assured that my future results would be different, I tried them again. Since then I’ve killed five mule deer from roughly 100yds out to 380yds. None have taken a step after being hit. The elk didn’t go very far. I’ve killed more hogs and coyotes than I can count. Many running, and many at long enough range that it involved a fair bit of holdover. I’ve had the opportunity to hunt with someone experienced enough in finding wounded game to have tactics that go beyond following a blood trail.

I’m not perfect, and neither is anyone else. Thus far I haven’t lost a game animal yet. If you want to limit yourself to 250yds, that’s great, but it hasn’t resulted in a perfect track record for you. I have a problem with shooting at an animal without a safe backstop behind it, or without knowing what is behind it. I have a problem with shooting where you think vitals should be because you see a small part of an animal. I have a problem with shooting at animal if you don’t know for sure what it is. I have a problem with wounding an animal and not making your very very best effort to recover it...especially if you then choose to just shoot another one.

I’m not currently a bow hunter, but my try one day. I don’t have any definite numbers and may be off base, but I would guess that the average bow hunter has a worse track record than I do so far. You mention not having an appropriate pin for a certain range. What about traditional archers without pins? What about instinctive shooters who don’t even have sights?

Of my 16 big game animals, three were not killed as cleanly as I would have liked, but were they killed more cleanly than being eating alive by coyotes, or a lion, or freezing or starving to death because they’re too old to keep warm and well fed, more cleanly than brain worms or CWD? Probably. What about drowning in their own blood with an arrow through the lungs, or walking around for days with an arrow in the guts untilnthey die of septicemia? I don’t believe to be unethical to try something a little less than ideal if it’s safe, and you’re going to make your best effort both to make it work, and to recover it after the fact.
 
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