Conservation Funding

[Irrelevant]

Who should pay for conservation? - High Country News

Traditional sources of funding are dwindling, and some believe park visitors should step up.

www.hcn.org

I still struggle with the Outdoor recreation industry claiming taxes will hurt there bottom line. No one is even going to notice.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Who should pay for conservation? - High Country News

Traditional sources of funding are dwindling, and some believe park visitors should step up.

www.hcn.org

I still struggle with the Outdoor recreation industry claiming taxes will hurt there bottom line. No one is even going to notice.

Agreed. As I’ve said before, it doesn’t have to be a big tax.

 

[SAJ-99]

Here is an old article on the tax that was linked in your original. The argument is always the same.
1- we already have taxes on our stuff
2- government isn't efficient
3- small business blah, blah, blah
4- jobs, jobs, jobs
They left #4 out of the article, but it was written in 2017 so I give them a pass.
https://outdoorindustry.org/article/where-we-stand-on-the-backpack-tax/

 

[nrpate05]

Yea I think the main arguments against a backpack tax are pretty weak. I have a hard time believing it'll price people out of going outside. I wonder how the "REI crowd" feels about paying into the system. I know the industry as a whole is against it, but I wonder if more of the general population is OK with it. It would be cool if part of the annual REI dividend went towards conservation. If every member gave just a fraction that would likely add up to a good chunk. Curious how much it would actually be.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

It wouldn’t be difficult at all to put together studies relevant to public land use, travel plans, etc to show a need for more public land funding.

Yes, government CAN be inefficient but that doesnt mean it always is. Plus, local small businesses and jobs depend on healthy public lands and effective administration and management of those lands.

 

[Trial153]

I think the key to a "backpack tax" is to bypass the industry and appeal directly to the consumer. I think you'll find the average - somewhat serious backpack a hiker/public land user Way more altruistic than a table of industry CEOs.

 

[Hunting Wife]

“Money cannot and should not be a barrier to accessing public lands.”

I guess I would counter that money is also a barrier to public lands access if we don’t have the funding to keep public lands accessible.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Who should pay for conservation? - High Country News

Traditional sources of funding are dwindling, and some believe park visitors should step up.

www.hcn.org

I still struggle with the Outdoor recreation industry claiming taxes will hurt there bottom line. No one is even going to notice.

It seems hunters are already contributing their “fair share” through the purchase of licenses and tags and ammunition and firearms. So now they will get hit again with a tax on outdoor gear? This has been brought up on here before and it seems the shed-only hunters and those just backpacking and hiking are getting the free pass. Why not just require everyone that wants to use public lands to purchase a hunting license? Change the name to “hunting and conservation license.”

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I got it I got it!!!!!

Balloon taxes.

$5 tax on every F-ing balloon.

 

[Dougfirtree]

It's time.

 

[SAJ-99]

Why not just require everyone that wants to use public lands to purchase a hunting license? Change the name to “hunting and conservation license.”

Only way to really do it would be in the vehicle renewal license process, like the state lands permit. Some will complain that they are taxed without using the land so it would have to voluntary. Then you would have to enforce the law somehow.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Here is an old article on the tax that was linked in your original. The argument is always the same.

3- small business blah, blah, blah

You must have never run a small business. These kinds of specialty taxes are very time-consuming to manage. But hey, I guess that's someone else's problem so why should we care?

I am in favor of strong conservation funding, but I find special use taxes, in general, to be inefficient, convoluted, don't actually increase funding over time as the legislators/congress-folks just factor it in (and reduce general fund expenditures accordingly), and are ripe for crony-capital shenanigans.

 

[brocksw]

Agreed. As I’ve said before, it doesn’t have to be a big tax.

An excise tax, similar to PR will scare people away these days. That would fall into the category of a big tax. Anything above a percent or two would have that perception of being a high impact tax to industry that they would hand down to the price of the consumer.

I would be curious to see someone run the numbers on a VAT style tax for a "backpack tax". Much more unnoticable, measured in a cents not percentage points of retail price and everybody participates from the very start of the manufacturing process to the consumer paying for the product.

 

[BuzzH]

You must have never run a small business. These kinds of specialty taxes are very time-consuming to manage. But hey, I guess that's someone else's problem so why should we care?

I am in favor of strong conservation funding, but I find special use taxes, in general, to be inefficient, convoluted, don't actually increase funding over time as the legislators/congress-folks just factor it in (and reduce general fund expenditures accordingly), and are ripe for crony-capital shenanigans.

Point taken and I agree about a cumbersome tax on small business.

That said they get off easy taking from public lands and wildlife without providing a red cent for funding what they are making their living from. I guess the burden of conservation funding is someone else's problem so why should they care?

 

[SAJ-99]

You must have never run a small business. These kinds of specialty taxes are very time-consuming to manage. But hey, I guess that's someone else's problem so why should we care?

I am in favor of strong conservation funding, but I find special use taxes, in general, to be inefficient, convoluted, don't actually increase funding over time as the legislators/congress-folks just factor it in (and reduce general fund expenditures accordingly), and are ripe for crony-capital shenanigans.

There is software for that. The Outdoor Industry Association isn’t a trade org, it’s a political lobby. I can find a solution in a 20min discussion with Patagonia’s COO that would eliminate the small businesses completely. Tax them when they are taken off the boat.

 

[VikingsGuy]

That said they get off easy taking from public lands and wildlife without providing a red cent for funding what they are making their living from. I guess the burden of conservation funding is someone else's problem so why should they care?

I care, and "we" care. If a majority cared the pols wouldn't get off so easy.

And as I mentioned, for me this is not just this one issue. We have become a land of 10,000 taxes - to the point that no one actually knows what all is taxed, which are efficient, which aren't, which are just political favoritism, which are backhanded attempts to regulate or reduce an industry - and all of which let the pols off the hook for actually making the real decisions they are tasked to make.

I choose to worry about the bigger picture of our currently f-ed up government and don't support the further balkanization/tower of babble approach to funding government. I get it when others just throw up their hands and say it's not getting better so we better just play the game for our pet issue, but that is a self-fulfilling prophesy that across many issues only makes the whole situation worse.

 

[VikingsGuy]

There is software for that. The Outdoor Industry Association isn’t a trade org, it’s a political lobby. I can find a solution in a 20min discussion with Patagonia’s COO that would eliminate the small businesses completely. Tax them when they are taken off the boat.

Not as simple as "they have an app for that". I helped my mom and dad with a retirement small business and the 50-state sales tax and other multi-state rules crushed them. What a total mess. Heck, if I was a big business I would lobby for more complex tax rules, more industry regulation, more state-to-state variation in taxes and regulations, etc. I would just hire teams of accountants and lawyers and pass the costs to my end customers, and my small competitors can just wither away rather than focusing on disruptive options or better customer service or improved products. Ohhhh, wait, that is already how crony-capitalism is working in 2021.

 

[SAJ-99]

Not as simple as "they have an app for that". I helped my mom and dad with a retirement small business and the 50-state sales tax and other multi-state rules crushed them. What a total mess. Heck, if I was a big business I would lobby for more complex tax rules, more industry regulation, more state-to-state variation in taxes and regulations, etc. I would just hire teams of accountants and lawyers and pass the costs to my end customers, and my small competitors can just wither away rather than focusing on disruptive options or better customer service or improved products. Ohhhh, wait, that is already how crony-capitalism is working in 2021.

Completely agree. That is why I laugh when I hear big business complain about more regulation. Complexity benefits them and puts the smaller competition out of business. PR taxes haven't shut down archery shops. I'm sure it is a pain in the ass to manage, but it is possible.

They OIA has some valid points, like LWCF should be fully funded, but we know why it hasn't been funded. The amazing part about PR is that it was a tax pushed by users on themselves in the middle of the great depression. The chance of something similar happening today is less than zero. Companies like Patagonia and NorthFace want to sell the outdoors, they just don't want to have to pay for its upkeep.

 

[brocksw]

There is software for that. The Outdoor Industry Association isn’t a trade org, it’s a political lobby. I can find a solution in a 20min discussion with Patagonia’s COO that would eliminate the small businesses completely. Tax them when they are taken off the boat.

VAT (Value Added Tax)

 

[VikingsGuy]

Tax them when they are taken off the boat.

I am sure the WTO would have a lot to say about that