Camping Outside Designated Sites in Wilderness Area [RESOLVED]

[Hawk Tuah]

I will neither confirm nor deny my position on this.

I can say that if one were to do it, and it was in a place where absolutely no reasonable human being would ever venture without a sheep or goat tag, especially including a law enforcement person, I wouldn't get too concerned. I would follow any campfire restrictions, however.

Just hypothetical...

 

[Hawk Tuah]

I will say, some of the best confrontations I've had with granola-eating, tree-hugging hippie hikers is hunting in wilderness areas.

Typically, they first attack the fact I have a gun. I begin by trying to deescalate, usually by complimenting them on some piece of gear and asking how it performs. If that fails, I tell them my right to carry a firearm protects their right to say stupid shit to an armed complete stranger. This either confuses or infuriates them, depending on their individual intelligence level.

Then they start with the "never venture off of the trail," jargon. I ask if they'd prefer I shoot an animal from the trail. This usually ends it.

These guys are always pussies when counter-confronted and back down.

"Go eat a Clif bar, bud." (Secretly, I carry Clif bars.)

Man, I sure miss living in Colorado.

 

[Brad W]

https://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/backcountry-basics/leave-no-trace/finding-great-campsite/

Above is the official policy of the Pacific Crest Trail Association. It actually specifies that you should find a hidden place at least 200 feet from the trail or a water source to camp to prevent the creation of permanent visible camping spots. Take it for what it’s worth but it appears to directly contradict the policy and spirit of the other overlapping association you are dealing with.

 

[Straight Arrow]

It sounds like bureaucratic confusion and almost contradictory rules for a specific wilderness location.
Best advice: go hunt somewhere else where rules are clear.

 

[WBouldin]

It sounds like bureaucratic confusion and almost contradictory rules for a specific wilderness location.
Best advice: go hunt somewhere else where rules are clear.

No offense, but that’s kinda the outcome they want. There isn’t a reason I can clearly find to prohibit me from recreating on my public lands. Not throwing in the towel on this

 

[2rocky]

There are some High Volume use areas along the PCT where camp spots are few and far between and crowding is a problem. I would recommend you avoid those areas.

in a related "prohibition"
If you are planning on visiting a designated Wilderness Area, be advised that the Regional Forester or Forest Supervisor has the option to implement a special local order which additionally prohibits the mere possession of a firearm within that Wilderness Area. Although this prohibition is not common, you should contact the Forest Supervisor's office to find out whether such a restriction has been imposed.

Please note that, in addition to § 261.10 (d) 1,2,3 Occupancy and Use, we currently have two Forest firearms restriction in place, the Grass Lake Biological Closure Area and the Pope-Baldwin Recreational Closure Area .

The Lake Valley Firearms Control Area, see Title 9: 9.44.060 Lake Valley Firearm Control Area is in place and enforced by El Dorado County. View the map

 

[Straight Arrow]

No offense, but that’s kinda the outcome they want. There isn’t a reason I can clearly find to prohibit me from recreating on my public lands. Not throwing in the towel on this

I get it. Good on you. But all you have is your pride. The "Association" evidently has the authority and the rules.
All I'm saying is that it's better to go hunting somewhere else than wasting time and energy tilting at windmills.

 

[WBouldin]

Update: got a ranger district at USFS to call me back. He deferred to the associations permitting rules. I let him know I didn’t feel logically that’s the answer here and he said “I don’t know, call the supervisors office”. Their phones are broken so I’ll keep trying that each day until I get through. The saga continues.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

This reminds me of the old arument threads about it being lawful/unlawful to park along the interstate to hunt. Topgun and Buzz would go at it for days. I think I would get the name and number of every game Warden or forest warden in the area. I'd also email them for confirmation and save it to reproduce if needed. If the LEOs are fine, I'd say it's fine. There is a difference between management and enforcement.

 

[Straight Arrow]

There is a difference between management and enforcement.

There is also a big difference between state hunting regulations enforcement versus National Forest (Wilderness Area) regulations enforcement. Two very different LEOs enforcing two very different sets of regulations. I thought everyone who completed hunter education knew that.

 

[WBouldin]

This reminds me of the old arument threads about it being lawful/unlawful to park along the interstate to hunt. Topgun and Buzz would go at it for days. I think I would get the name and number of every game Warden or forest warden in the area. I'd also email them for confirmation and save it to reproduce if needed. If the LEOs are fine, I'd say it's fine. There is a difference between management and enforcement.

Yeah that’s the thing - I don’t know who would actually “enforce” this. Hoping the supervisors office helps if not, I’ll just go off the wardens advice

 

[Straight Arrow]

Hmmm ... 'wonder if a state hunting "warden" would pay your fine if a National Forest "warden" cited you for illegal camping on federal land. 'Asking for a hunter friend.

 

[huntnpack]

Hmmm ... 'wonder if a state hunting "warden" would pay your fine if a National Forest "warden" cited you for illegal camping on federal land. 'Asking for a hunter friend.

Why are you trying to get someone to shank the tent before they even have all the answers?

 

[Straight Arrow]

Why are you trying to get someone to shank the tent before they even have all the answers?

Nope ... 'just trying to get someone to pose the right questions to the rightful and proper authority before they pitch their tent ... potentially having to later shank the tent, as well as shank a monetary fine.

 

[huntnpack]

Best advice: go hunt somewhere else where rules are clear.

All I'm saying is that it's better to go hunting somewhere else than wasting time and energy tilting at windmills.

Ok…

 

[WBouldin]

Nope ... 'just trying to get someone to pose the right questions to the rightful and proper authority before they pitch their tent ... potentially having to later shank the tent, as well as shank a monetary fine.

Bud, read the thread. I’m trying to get answers from the USFS. They aren’t responsive. I got 9 months to get an answer. The question was posed though, “who” would cite you. Either a ranger or a game warden come to mind. Have an answer from 1 - no response from the other. If it ends that way, I’d feel pretty comfortable stating my case with the efforts I’ve gone through to try to confirm an interpretation. If that body fails to do their duty to respond the to public, that’s on them. It’s a simple question. Should be a simple answer. I’m not taking a private association’s stance on accessing public resources as the letter of the law.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Sorry, Bud, 'not intending to offend you. It's just that here in Montana, there's never been a problem finding information about camping rules for various USFS districts, forests, or other federal land areas, even those managed by commercial or nonprofit entities. Published maps and rules are readily available. Trips to a local office or phone calls to the USFS also work here. It's surprising if they are not available for your area, even with the subletting of authority to the "association".
Furthermore, it's doubtful even in California that a state game warden can authorize or cite someone regarding camping on USFS federal lands. Conversely, it's doubtful that a USFS federal LEO can authorize or cite someone regarding state hunting regulations.

Again, did not mean to offend. I do hope you find the right tree to bark up.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

There is also a big difference between state hunting regulations enforcement versus National Forest (Wilderness Area) regulations enforcement. Two very different LEOs enforcing two very different sets of regulations. I thought everyone who completed hunter education knew that.

That is why I mentioned the forest warden. Not sure if that's the exact title or just what I call them.

 

[Dsnow9]

Bud, read the thread. I’m trying to get answers from the USFS. They aren’t responsive. I got 9 months to get an answer. The question was posed though, “who” would cite you. Either a ranger or a game warden come to mind. Have an answer from 1 - no response from the other. If it ends that way, I’d feel pretty comfortable stating my case with the efforts I’ve gone through to try to confirm an interpretation. If that body fails to do their duty to respond the to public, that’s on them. It’s a simple question. Should be a simple answer. I’m not taking a private association’s stance on accessing public resources as the letter of the law.

How much is the fine for not camping at a designated site? Something tells me worst case scenario it could be worth it.

 

[Straight Arrow]

That is why I mentioned the forest warden. Not sure if that's the exact title or just what I call them.

Federal US Forest Service Law Enforcement Officers are often referred to as forest rangers.

State wildlife management law enforcement officers are usually referred to as game wardens.