Bush erases Clinton's ban on development in forests

[Muledeer4me]

"MD- So, you can't be closest to the land and like granola? Who do see as being closest to the land? The USFS or BLM employee or the 3rd generation logger/rancher/miner? I can tell who usually has more influence...."


1Pointer, I think a person can be close to the land and still like granola ,starbucks coffee and teva's -------it what comes out of there mouth thats makes them a gronala cruncher not so much what goes in.

 

[1_pointer]

Nemont- We'll call it a draw... I just think there's plenty of opportunity for 'suggestions' as is.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I hope people will be able to understand that once an area is no longer roadless, the environment is impacted and the value of having something "untouched" is gone.

Your kidding right....

A few hundred years maybe in some of our desert regions, but it sure isn't every where, there are a lot of places I see around that were cleared out of every thing and unless you know what your looking at, would'nt even know it had been touched.

If you want to go into trackless basically untouched lands, you need to go into the outback areas of extremely low populations (hint, you have to move out of the cities and away from people) you can't live out your fantasy very well in the lower 48.

The whole of the US has been touched at one time or another and places you think are pristine and beautiful that you are the first to walk in since the dawn of time, are a fallacy... If you know what your looking at, you can see old roads every where and the remains of old structures in one degree of decay or another. Mother Earth reclaims every thing in the end. It’s not a picture you can hang on a wall that remains static forever and ever. It is extremely dynamic and ever changing. If you open your eyes to the truth, and not stay blinded by your big brother and his cronies, you would actually see this.

To label any where on Earth as untouched you only fool yourself in youthful orgasms and you only lie to you and any one you speak talk to like this, not seeing reality as it really is will keep you in a fuzzy state of self denial that isn’t healthy.

MD- So, you can't be closest to the land and like granola?

Does Birkenstocks (sp) count in this to???

 

[BuzzH]

Hey Cheese,

I think Matt "gets" the idea of roadless country, while you continue to struggle.

Theres a big difference between natural succession and natural processes working on the environment than there is "managing" lands like we have in the past couple hundred years.

Its next to impossible to "re-create" roadless country and roadless attributes, ask anyone with a natural resource background, they'll tell you the same thing.

Beings how a vast majority of public and private lands are open for multiple use, I think it makes total sense to leave the remaining roadless country just that...roadless. Most of it should already be wilderness anyway, and further, nearly all of it is protected under NFMA.

Anyone that believes the forests and the forest environments are "safer" from insect and disease, fire, etc. because of roads is a fool. The current FS Chief will not allow the current roadless country to be roaded...for any reason.

Nemont,

The governors of the states should have the same voice, but no more, as any other American Citizen in regard to the management of Federal Lands. I also agree 100% with Pointer that there are more than enough layers of public involvement processes.

If the new rules dont change anything...why have them?

 

[SageGhost]

reply.,.

gov Kempthorne said today on an interview that Clinton was an idiot and that he is going to open it back up..

 

[Ithaca 37]

Of course. Kempthorne has been in the back pocket of Boise Cascade ever since he was the mayor of Boise. He does whatever Boise Cascade tells him to.

 

[BuzzH]

Sagehen,

What is Kempthorne going to "open back up"?

Just what I thought, you dont have a clue.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Theres a big difference between natural succession and natural processes working on the environment than there is "managing" lands like we have in the past couple hundred years.

HAHAHA!!! Buzz your a funny guy... We haven't been "managing" lands in the modern sense for the "Last couple hundred years..." You both need to look at your history books!!! I am thinking the sense of "Management" for the general consensus was started around the time the ol' Teddy started Yellowstone...

Anyone that believes the forests and the forest environments are "safer" from insect and disease, fire, etc. because of roads is a fool. The current FS Chief will not allow the current roadless country to be roaded...for any reason.

If the new rules dont change anything...why have them?

You have to ask this coming when it comes out of Washington???

Just what I thought, you dont have a clue.

Coming from some one who hides in his own little box and only peeks out of the eye holes to see what is going on... :

 

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese,

Not only do you need to find that clue you've been missing, you need to study up on forest management and natural resource management.

I bet you didnt even know the first forest legislation was enacted 6 years after the landing at plymouth rock.

Ever heard of the Broad Arrow Policy? Apparently not. How about the General Ordinance of 1785? The reason for that must escape your simple mind.

If you dont think we've been attempting to manage resources in this country for the last "couple hundred years"...you have your head up your ass.

Another classic case of Cheese not having a clue about the topics discussed in SI.

 

[mtmiller]

HAHAHA!!! Buzz your a funny guy... We haven't been "managing" lands in the modern sense for the "Last couple hundred years..." You both need to look at your history books!!! I am thinking the sense of "Management" for the general consensus was started around the time the ol' Teddy started Yellowstone...

chasr, I think you are mixing up the terms "Management" and "Preservation".

Edit-Woops, Buzz beat me to the punch.

 

[Nemont]

Nemont,

The governors of the states should have the same voice, but no more, as any other American Citizen in regard to the management of Federal Lands. I also agree 100% with Pointer that there are more than enough layers of public involvement processes.

If the new rules dont change anything...why have them?

Buzz,
Just to restate, I never said Govenors should have more of a say in the process. I stated that people like Ithaca and MattK who had a knee jerk reaction to what the news media said and printed were not reading the actual rules. That means that they were reacting without being informed about what the new rules actually said. So they are doing exactly what they always accuse the "loyal" opposition of doing: getting their info from one source. eg the EIB network. Go read what they wrote and then read the proposed rules and see that they are wrong.

Just a note the Clinton roadless rules have been ruled to violate NEPA so I guess that is why new rules had to be written. Nobody has answered my question of why Clinton waited until 9 days before he was out of power to protect the roadless areas? It was done by Executive order and not by a bill that was introduced, debated upon and then passed and signed into law.

Nemont

 

[ELKCHSR]

Buzz...
Nothing like going to the extreme and looking at nuances for your whole argument...

I bet you didnt even know the first forest legislation was enacted 6 years after the landing at plymouth rock.

Whether this is true or not, it isn't the point that it wasn't a national phenomenon and had any sense of issue with any of the places you are so dedicated to...

If you want to go back into history and legislation about saving the environment from the average man, you need to go back into history to the kings of old that would have subjects killed if they were after the king’s deer...

Your laws may have been put into place but on a very limited local and not into the public limelight and national degree of importance until the time I have stated.

The law books are plum stock full of "things enacted" that are very obscure, such as the information you seem to always put onto this board as if it were normal and common knowledge to every living entity on the planet...

 

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese said, "HAHAHA!!! Buzz your a funny guy... We haven't been "managing" lands in the modern sense for the "Last couple hundred years..."

Cheese, be a man and admit you're wrong.

If we havent been managing lands for the last couple hundred years than how do YOU explain early regulations, forest reserves etc. like the following:

Broad Arrow Policy.
General Ordinance of 1785
Naval Timber Reserves (1799).
Timber Trespass (early 1830's)

Ever heard of people like George Perkins Marsh? or John Wesley Powell? They were advocating resource management around the time of the civil war. You do know how long ago the civil war was dont you?

Cheese, I addressed the questions you had, if you're too ignorant to comprehend the answers thats your problem. Your lack of knowledge on resource management is pretty darn obvious, even to a casual observor.

The U.S. has been practicing resource management for at least a couple hundred years according to all reliable sources. Try finding that clue before you spout your bullshit.

 

[Tom]

http://www.canyon-country.com/lakepowell/jwpowell.htm Is that all Powell did was go down the river?

I know George Perkins March, he's sort of the father of conservation in the US, right? He wrote the first book on it here, around 1850. Its still in print.

So, what's a good modern book for this stuff on forests, is there one, one for the general US citizen. Why don't you post that? Instead of spouting so much, you should know this, you should know that. You should tell us how to know it, if you believe it to be true and have some reference. Isn't that a way to communicate in a persuasive way?

Did Powell do anything for forests?

 

[BuzzH]

Tom, John Wesley Powell wrote a report called, "Report on the Arid Regions of the United States". A good book to read on Powell and why he did the report, floated the Colorado, etc. is the book "Cadillac Desert" by Mark Risner. That book will definately grab your attention as to why resource management was important even a couple hundred years ago. The section on the water troubles of Los Angeles is pretty darn interesting.

Theres a whole bunch of good forest management books on the market, the internet always provides some good sources of basic laws, regulations, etc. related to Resource Management. The Cheese hasnt figured out how to do a google search apparently.

That being said, the cheese has no interest in learning about resource management, he just likes to ruin threads with his lack of knowledge...so I'm not going to waste my time educating fools like the cheese on resource management issues.

Tom, I know you are smart enough, even without reading books, to realize that the U.S. has been practicing resource management for 200+ years...and clearly WAY before the time of T. Roosevelt.

 

[Muledeer4me]

"Quote:
We have posters who think there should be roads and trails for motorized vehicles over every inch of forest in our country. We have posters who actually believe that every bit of forest should be logged and "managed" to maximize short term timber harvest profits. We have posters who think every bit of public land should be opened up for multiple use including mining development, overgrazing by cattle, ATV travel and everything else "


Ithaca, could you point out those poster's.
I don't anyone on here that has said that.
Neither Ithaca or Buzz can even tell the truth about the BRC let alone what posters on here really think.

" gov Kempthorne said today on an interview that Clinton was an idiot and that he is going to open it back up.."
Im not a kempthorne fan but he sure hit the nail on the head with that statment.


"Does Birkenstocks (sp) count in this to??? "
Elkchsr they count LOL

 

[Tom]

I guess Powell got famous going down the river through the canyon. Here's what he did later from that link above. I guess he made maps, USGS maps?

"Powell's active work as a geologist eventually gave way to a new career in government. In March 1881, he assumed the directorship of the U.S. Geological survey when the first director Clarence King resigned. He served for 13 years, until he retired in 1894. Powell also served as director of the Smithsonian's Bureau of Ethnology from 1880 until his death in 1902. Between 1894 and 1902, Powell spent increasingly less time running the Bureau and more time on his philosophical/ethnographic writing. "

He did philosophical writing? Wow. John Muir and Pinchot were at odds of a dam for water in California. I've heard of that, but don't know much of the detail. Muir was preservationist, Pinchot was conservationist. I think I read Muir tried to convince Roosevelt to go his way on a camping trip. It didn't work, and now we have the Sierra Club that Muir started.

Hey, 2005 is the hundred year history of Forest Service Management in the US Dept. of Agriculture.

http://www.lib.duke.edu/forest//Research/usfscoll/

Before that they just cut everything down, like there was no end, right. Give some references please, what are you talking about there, what management did they do 200 years ago? Please.

 

[MattK]

Tom- Cheese- Here is an interesting link with the information that you have requested on land management/ conservation efforts in the US.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/amrvhtml/cnchron1.html

Cheese- it's even chronological (ordered according to date), to make the reading easier.

 

[Tom]

2005-1847=158 years, round that off, its 200? People in Montana exagerate a little. What about that Naval Timber deal Buzz mentioned, any info. on that around?

Buzz was probably on the Naval committee that did it and has it at his fingertips. Got a web link or anything, a book?

 

[MattK]

Tom-The year on this one was 1739. 2005-1739= 266 years. I guess the estimation may have been a little on the other side of 200. That seems to predate the United States of America...I believe there were just colonies at that time. Maybe conservation and the environment was important even then?

"In one of the first American environmental protests, Benjamin Franklin and other Philadelphia tradesmen petition the Assembly against slaughterhouse waste in Dock Creek"

further link for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.texaslegacy.org/m/timeline.html