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Bulls for Billionaires - MT EQC Meeting today 1:30 PM

DougStickney said:
So we should give out drought payments, flood payments, Covid payments, grasshopper payments, game damage payments, deal with the nasty public payments, and free transferable elk tags? Am I missing anything? Enough is enough imo.
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Maybe elaborate on actual payments that have been made in those areas and to whom they were paid.
 
I think there are multiple points to address for improving the elk hunting on both public and private. I won’t pretend to understand all the dynamics of elk in the western part of the state since I’m way on the east end. One question I have is that since both resident and non residents will have to eventually need to make sacrifices in their hunting in different ways due to increases in population and popularity, how long do we wait to do our part to implement different strategies and make the necessary sacrifices to improve things? I love drawing a breaks archery elk permit every year and I love hunting bucks during peak rut with the rifle among other things. But I also recognize that so many of our current practices aren’t sustainable and will inevitably need to change at some point as most of our public land hunting opportunities are getting worse.

Edit: I know this topic is mostly in regards to private land bull tags, but I think we need to address changes to how we manage opportunity on public land in addition to how we improve access and other issues in regards to private land elk.
 
shrapnel said:
Maybe elaborate on actual payments that have been made in those areas and to whom they were paid.
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farm.ewg.org

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database put the issue on the map and is driving reform. Just ten percent of America's largest and richest farms collect almost three-fourths of federal farm subsidies; cash payments that often harm the environment.
farm.ewg.org farm.ewg.org

Feel free to tell us on what actual payments have been made.
 
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TheTone said:
farm.ewg.org

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database

EWG's Farm Subsidy Database put the issue on the map and is driving reform. Just ten percent of America's largest and richest farms collect almost three-fourths of federal farm subsidies; cash payments that often harm the environment.
farm.ewg.org farm.ewg.org

Feel free to tell us on what actual payments have been made.
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CFAP payment is another interesting one to look at. I don’t really care we waste money in worst ways just something to think about. The sooner people realize they will never get to hunt private the better.
 
shrapnel said:
I think that some balance has to be illustrated here.

I honestly don’t know how many billionaires have land and want special treatment vs how many ranchers that have problems with elk. Wilks keeps coming up, how many other billionaires are wanting the same treatment?

I patrol a private ranch that has thousands of acres in 2 adjoining counties. The owner allows elk hunting every day from the day the season opens until the end of the shoulder season in February.

There are 2 separate parcels they allow hunting, the second is a large chunk of ground with several sections that the public has been driving off road and abusing the property by shooting buildings and equipment.

That is the parcel I patrol, just to make sure that the property is not mistreated and that the people hunting there have permission, because they still allow hunting there.

I find a few people each fall abusing the privilege, and no charges have been filed, just keeping people where they belong and warn them of their violations.

The elk, however, as they move through and around the property, destroy more than they consume in hay. The fences are never completely up, as elk when running will jump a fence for the first 50 or so, but when they get running, will knock a fence down quite easily. You have no idea how 200-500 head of elk can destroy a fence when the get running.

The owner wants as many elk taken as possible, requiring cows to be shot, but they have never asked for bull permits beyond any they could get OTC.

People call at 5:30 in the morning, drive in all times of the day or night, even claim their ranch is state ground and shoot elk in their irrigated hay field. There is a point that hunters can create more of a problem than the elk do, and yet they still allow hunting.

I have yet to see anyone lined up at 5:30 in the morning to ask permission to help rebuild the fences the elk knock down, and I have spent many hours myself restringing wire and patching torn up fences that never get completed before the elk tear it up again. The elk aren’t only a problem during hunting season, they can tear down a fence in July as easily as October.

This may be a sample of one, but there still remains a lot of privately owned land in Montana that allow hunting and elk can and do create a serious problem. Elk hunting contributes to that problem as seen by the debacle near White Sulphur Springs last fall.

It is a big pie and everyone wants a piece, but I would like to know just how many billionaires with unearned privileges there are against the other private property that is still allowing hunting.
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Landowner needs to be compensated by FWP for providing for elk, allowing public hunting, and still having damages.
Landowner needs to prosecute criminals.
Hunters need to pay more for licenses, to pay landowner..
 
Greenhorn said:
Landowner needs to be compensated by FWP for providing for elk, allowing public hunting, and still having damages.
Landowner needs to prosecute criminals.
Hunters need to pay more for licenses, to pay landowner..
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Realistically could double many of the current prices, both resident and non-resident, and it would still be a fair price.
 
YoungGun said:
Realistically could double many of the current prices, both resident and non-resident, and it would still be a fair price.
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I just paid 1300$ To apply for a big game combo . You want to double that ? If you double resident price their elk tag will still cost less than a good steak dinner for Christ sake wow
 
Guys we are going about this all wrong. According to the guide that just mansplained (explained for you older folk) to me, the only real way to getting a bull is just take lots of time off from your job! I get that hunting during the week seems to be the new norm now but not everyone has mass amounts of free time to hunt for the only bull for several miles.

Absolutely we have to help out landowners that are allowing some form of access as well as tolerating elk but at the same time I don't think we should just dismiss the challenges that hunters face. Every region is different and should have solutions that fit that area but where I hunt, habitat is awful and elk are scarce.
I can't help but be a little frustrated when I see the two tiny fields on public in one unit I hunt that the elk use frequently, gets mowed down every year by cattle in the summer/ fall. The fence is down all over on the property and the cattle can really go anywhere that they please. The landowner doesn't seem to notice (or care), he doesn't ranch and just bought the property for an investment but charges the neighboring ranchers to graze their cattle on his land.

I have been lucky to meet some really nice landowners that have taken the time to help me out and educate me on what challenges they experience and how they would like to see some improvements to the BMA program. I don't think it would be too unreasonable to allow them some days to hunt their own property (closing the BMA for a couples days) without losing quite a bit of money given to them in the program. These landowners definitely need more help catching hunters doing illegal activities such as pulling down gates to drive where they aren't supposed to.

Truthfully, my elk utopia looks like never needing to hunt private land because the elk have bounced back on public. But I recognize the need to open up more land to hunt as well as creating better elk habitat so we should all try work together instead of pointing fingers and reverting to tribalism. There are so many good discussions here to build off of and I look forward to some solutions.

Apologies for the rant, planning scouting areas for the summer gets a little frustrating when the elk objectives are depressingly low.
Also, I saw you can donate your refund to the BMA program, it would be really interesting to see how much money that generates in the first year and I hope that information is easily accessible.
 
MTelkHuntress said:
Guys we are going about this all wrong. According to the guide that just mansplained (explained for you older folk) to me, the only real way to getting a bull is just take lots of time off from your job! I get that hunting during the week seems to be the new norm now but not everyone has mass amounts of free time to hunt for the only bull for several miles.

Absolutely we have to help out landowners that are allowing some form of access as well as tolerating elk but at the same time I don't think we should just dismiss the challenges that hunters face. Every region is different and should have solutions that fit that area but where I hunt, habitat is awful and elk are scarce.
I can't help but be a little frustrated when I see the two tiny fields on public in one unit I hunt that the elk use frequently, gets mowed down every year by cattle in the summer/ fall. The fence is down all over on the property and the cattle can really go anywhere that they please. The landowner doesn't seem to notice (or care), he doesn't ranch and just bought the property for an investment but charges the neighboring ranchers to graze their cattle on his land.

I have been lucky to meet some really nice landowners that have taken the time to help me out and educate me on what challenges they experience and how they would like to see some improvements to the BMA program. I don't think it would be too unreasonable to allow them some days to hunt their own property (closing the BMA for a couples days) without losing quite a bit of money given to them in the program. These landowners definitely need more help catching hunters doing illegal activities such as pulling down gates to drive where they aren't supposed to.

Truthfully, my elk utopia looks like never needing to hunt private land because the elk have bounced back on public. But I recognize the need to open up more land to hunt as well as creating better elk habitat so we should all try work together instead of pointing fingers and reverting to tribalism. There are so many good discussions here to build off of and I look forward to some solutions.

Apologies for the rant, planning scouting areas for the summer gets a little frustrating when the elk objectives are depressingly low.
Also, I saw you can donate your refund to the BMA program, it would be really interesting to see how much money that generates in the first year and I hope that information is easily accessible.
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As a NR lots of my license fees already go to BmA’s . How much do residents contribute to it ?
 
With the current season structure there is no fixing this problem. You can throw as much money or tags around as you want and it won’t fix anything. Sportsmen could even be on board with changing season structure and it still won’t matter until MTFWP is willing to make adjustments. Until then I say we triple nonresident prices and hope for the best.
 
8andcounting said:
I just paid 1300$ To apply for a big game combo . You want to double that ? If you double resident price their elk tag will still cost less than a good steak dinner for Christ sake wow
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You can also buy a sheep tag OTC for $1250 as a non-resident. Again, could double many of the current prices, or at least increase them to be commiserate. Your $1300 would get you and your three best friends exactly 1 day of skiing at Big Sky w/tram access, on a weekday, non-holiday. In 2010, it would have cost you $100/each. Your big game combo hasn't gone up all that much, and quite frankly, it's easy to complain about landowners and tell everyone they need to get paid, so a price increase that covers that part of equation has to come from somewhere.
 
8andcounting said:
As a NR lots of my license fees already go to BmA’s . How much do residents contribute to it ?
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I'm not sure and I wish that information and break down was more accessible. I agree residents could tolerate some license fee increases and hopefully that money would be put to some really good use. I understand to some that the fee increase might be a barrier amongst others. I think having somewhere to hunt that holds game is an even bigger barrier sometimes. If you're new to hunting (or hunt already) and never see animals, maybe you wouldnt be as likely to keep at it. Perhaps I have that perspective living in Montana my whole life and being spoiled with seeing elk frequently when I was really young but if I didn't have those experiences that hooked me in the first place, I question if I would have stuck with it so stubbornly.
 
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brockel said:
And they’d still sell out. People can’t get enough of 2.5 year old deer. Something about their neck roasts
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I’ve said it before after seeing the interest in a general 2 point season in Idaho good luck changing anything in Montana. The people eat it up. The fish and game loves it too we are in our glory days. Now if we can just find a way to get the Wilkes bull tags we will be sitting good. They need to manage “their” elk. It’s the only tool we have to let kids with cancer shoot an elk.
 
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