My guess is Breaks, Highwoods, Judiths.
Bozeman Area Round Table
- Thread starter Gerald Martin
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Hunting Wife
Well-known member
I don’t know how they can honestly say they don’t know how public land shoulder seasons will work. There have been public land shoulder seasons for several years (BLM in the Breaks for example). The result has been, IMO, predictable. The elk quickly figure out where the pressure isn’t, and stay there. Exactly like they do in the regular season. It’s what they’ve always done, and what they will continue to do. In the locations I’m thinking of, habitat and predators are not limiting factors in the equation. The distribution is almost entirely due to pressure.
This idea that somehow elk will magically not behave this way in certain months of the year or on land under different “ownership” is laughable.
brocksw
Well-known member
I've said this before, but if the breaks go to general, you'll have to wear orange for archery season and permanently affix a shield to your pack to protect your six. Learning how to form a testudo (circa 36 BC) with your hunting crew might be worthwhile as well. 
Can't wait to see these in sitka optifade...
Can't wait to see these in sitka optifade...
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The goal for UPOM is transferable tags and removal of access programs. Chuck will continue to be at the legislature. These folks are still pissed over losing game farms and their monopoly of bull elk harvest in EMONT.
Carnage2011
Well-known member
My views of UPOM get lower by the day..
brocksw
Well-known member
I'm not sure if mine could get any lower...My view of them has already plummeted straight down through the earth and rocketed out of the water at my antipode somewhere in the south indian ocean and is on it's way towards Sagittarius A*.
This is the same group that advocated for testing & slaughtering the Northern Yellowstone Elk herd over brucellosis concerns, have attempted to kill Habitat Montana on multiple occasions and killed the increase in fines for illegally gated roads and I'm not sure that the truth is anything that they're terribly familiar with, given their last op-ed about domestic bison grazing.
At least they're intellectually consistent in their approach. I guess.
T
tjones
Guest
We have a Senator here in Ravalli County that is proud as hell that she has a 100% vote approval from UPOM. She has it on all her signs. I told her once that it wasn't a good thing. She looked at me confused, which also is her normal look.
brocksw
Well-known member
@Ben Lamb how do sportsmen force, for lack of a better word, the FWP to redo the objectives from the ground up? We've all discussed this before, if they're going to be making decisions and changes based on those objectives, there should be some confidence behind populations and objective numbers before going forward. Is there a way to force this through?
I think the director's office has been clear that they're not listening to sportsmen and no matter how much the public dislikes what they are doing, they are answering to only the political elite who dictate from on high in order to cater to those who have failed to privatize the resource over the last 16 years, and to give deference to those who wish to simply profit off of the resource while kicking sportsmen & women while they're down.
So why spend time trying to influence them or the commission at all? We know that they're going to ignore our input, and that what the legislature thinks is far more important than their customers. So we should be taking this to the elected officials who have oversight of the agency and let them see what the problem is. I'm sure that the agency would prefer folks to not go to their elected officials and raise a ruckus, and rather will once again attempt to keep all discussion at the FWP level so they can massage the information to fit their narrative. That's malarkey, quite honestly and it ignores the rights that citizens of MT have relative to seeking out a more responsive and customer service oriented agency, as they were promised.
The Environmental Quality Council meets next week, September 14th & 15th in Helena. Elk aren't on the menu but at 1 PM on the 14th, there is opportunity for public comment on matters overseen by EQC. You can sign up for zoom or you can show up in person. I think showing up in person is a good bet.
Other than that, there really dos need to be a citizens elk management proposal that gets developed outside of the agency. Reducing that political influence and having honest conversations with landowners, sportsmen & outfitters is the best bet towards eliminating the political influence in wildlife management.
In short, it's time to get political to end political management. Your opposition is counting on you to founder and not be aggressive, they're counting on you to not play their game. They are mad that people are pulling back the curtain and showing others how this shitty game is played, and they're going to do everything they can to demagogue, obfuscate and gaslight you. Make them take it from you, as Pos said.
Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Maybe you guys can get Nameless and our favorite 'Masshole to look into the actual impacts of these various policies on actual hunting success. Both together some nice graphs and maps to share. I mean they keep pushing more opportunity yet HDs are still over objective, and hunter success is plummeting (my assumption). Use their own data to refute the policy.
MT stats show a 13% hunter success rate on Bulls.
26% overall.
Wyoming, meanwhile, shows a 21.6% bull harvest & 46% success rate overall.
6 months of hunting, shoulder seasons, archery, rifle, damage hunts, etc - all significantly less succesful than what WY does. Roughly the same number of elk are taken.
KB_
Well-known member
Why not raise the objective on all these units and make each region LE. Land owners can raise the prices of their elk outfitting business and make more money considering they are still going to get landowner permits regardless.
Positive:
- there will be more elk (eventually)
- Land owners can make more money off of their land owner tags.
- Landowners that need elk taken off their property can either get paid to allow hunters on their property to drive the elk off or they sell the tags to whomever and make money doing it and drive elk off the property.
I just don't understand the justification that FWP just wants to kill ALL the elk they can instead of work to move the elk where they are wanted vs where they are not wanted.
Mule deer, Holy crap is that a can of worms. Frankly Region three could probably get shut down for a couple years and probably a couple other regions could use a shut down as well. and LE for the others. Let these poor critters bounce back for a couple years
Hunting them into extinction is not conservation. Making it harder to get a tag is not a bad thing. It would create a sense of excitement that people draw a tag and have a good chance at getting on some quality critters and see far less people. You will get way more people applying for tags if you have quality animals to hunt. We are inching closer to the market hunting days that we abolished many years ago.
Positive:
- there will be more elk (eventually)
- Land owners can make more money off of their land owner tags.
- Landowners that need elk taken off their property can either get paid to allow hunters on their property to drive the elk off or they sell the tags to whomever and make money doing it and drive elk off the property.
I just don't understand the justification that FWP just wants to kill ALL the elk they can instead of work to move the elk where they are wanted vs where they are not wanted.
Mule deer, Holy crap is that a can of worms. Frankly Region three could probably get shut down for a couple years and probably a couple other regions could use a shut down as well. and LE for the others. Let these poor critters bounce back for a couple years
Hunting them into extinction is not conservation. Making it harder to get a tag is not a bad thing. It would create a sense of excitement that people draw a tag and have a good chance at getting on some quality critters and see far less people. You will get way more people applying for tags if you have quality animals to hunt. We are inching closer to the market hunting days that we abolished many years ago.
MTLabrador
Well-known member
I really wouldn’t want to see limited entry everywhere simply because we don’t need it. Simply shortening and possibly moving the season would have an enormous positive impact in most general units.
KB_
Well-known member
I'm going back and forth on shortening seasons. I feel like this would segregate everyone that is hunting to a shorter time frame creating far more pressure during the season. Making the hunt less enjoyable frankly.
But I also see the benefits too, Shorter seasons would probably reduce success rates and lead to more critters making it out and looking less like swiss cheese from all the non lethal bullet holes.
But at what point is enough enough? I'm sorry but we don't have enough wildlife on the landscape to justify shooting more of them.
MTLabrador
Well-known member
I agree, that’s why something absolutely has to be done. I just don’t think that a state as large as Montana needs to go limited entry across the board.
Carnage2011
Well-known member
I don't want to see limited entry statewide, but I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of compromise. Maybe choose your region? or Unit caps? I'm just spitballing...
KB_
Well-known member
I really like the choose your region idea. This may turn into half of montana choosing region 3 or 4 so may have to limit that lol. But I think its a good idea.
MTLabrador
Well-known member
I think all of that is a good idea. Idaho does that with good success and still offers a ton of opportunity.
Gerald Martin
Well-known member
- Joined
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Pressure on the resource must be reduced. That part is non- negotiable if we want to see any improvement in quality or maintenance of the little quality we have.
How we reduce the pressure can be approached in various ways. Whether it’s shorter seasons, pick your weapon, pick your unit, or limited entry is something that will have to be decided. The pros and cons of each approach is a great discussion to have.
How we reduce the pressure can be approached in various ways. Whether it’s shorter seasons, pick your weapon, pick your unit, or limited entry is something that will have to be decided. The pros and cons of each approach is a great discussion to have.
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